From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: A proposal for a friendlier Emacs Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 19:03:55 +0300 Message-ID: <20200922160355.GB8564@protected.rcdrun.com> References: <4be18b5f-dc07-2703-a2de-1ed08916ebdf@gmail.com> <20200921170740.GA3551@protected.rcdrun.com> <20200922062437.GM6402@protected.rcdrun.com> <83zh5hx5qf.fsf@gnu.org> <83sgb9x4q2.fsf@gnu.org> <7AC04422-8250-4A86-9064-BE6627726ABB@gnu.support> <83mu1hx1t4.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="27897"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.14.0 (2020-05-02) Cc: nicola.manca85@gmail.com, rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 22 18:43:17 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kKlNt-00078H-2z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 18:43:17 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51908 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKlNs-0000SO-5X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 12:43:16 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46540) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKkly-0002p8-MK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 12:04:08 -0400 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:41385) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKklw-0005LB-NF; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 12:04:06 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:197.157.0.18]) (AUTH: PLAIN securesender, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000056142.000000005F6A2070.00000A49; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 09:03:59 -0700 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83mu1hx1t4.fsf@gnu.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/22 10:11:15 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -3 X-Spam_score: -0.4 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256333 Archived-At: * Eli Zaretskii [2020-09-22 18:35]: > > Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 14:52:07 +0000 > > CC: rms@gnu.org, nicola.manca85@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org > > From: Jean Louis > > > > Which software specifically you installed with such assistants? > > Almost every application you install on a smartphone does that. Those on smartphone are not comparable directly to Emacs as text editor, and I use free software applications on smart phone and here is the summary: - none text editor that I use on smart phones have any configuration needs, I hope you don't mean permission configurations. I am using Editor from F-Droid, then Markor, µnote - applications that require network username and password setups, such as K-9 for email or Conversations for XMPP chat are offering such configuration walk throughs, that is understandable. Same type of assistive features could be implemented in Emacs to make it friendlier. - none application that functions without configuration is offering me configuration wizards. Emacs works without configuration. Thus does not need any configuration wizard. There is no need for any username, password, hostname, web server name, or similar, there is no need for any configuration that software works. And that complicates life for those real users using Emacs without .emacs. I understand you think you are making it friendlier, and I endorse that notion, I just think that assistance like that shall be packages or functions inside of Emacs and not forced onto users, especially not for reasons of not having .emacs file, and for reason to wrongly assume that non-.emacs-ers are beginners. Please also think on real users who don't use .emacs on multiple computers, as I am real user who need Emacs without .emacs or wizards, not just unnamed beginner, and I am promoting Emacs to new users too. Those beginners in need of a wizard, did not make the notion they need it. Few real users including me expressed that it is not necessary at first launch. Another thoughts, what is supposed to be done after the configuration wizard have assumed that user is beginner because there is no .emacs file and user pressed a key to choose one of the wizard options? Is the wizard then, after asking the user about configuration, supposed to make the .emacs file? As that way, the wizard is to wizardry stop assuming that user is beginner, because wizard created now the .emacs after user pressed a key to choose one of options, so wizard wizardry made a user advanced user... :-) truly magic how it works.