From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jean Louis Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: A proposal for a friendlier Emacs Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2020 09:24:37 +0300 Message-ID: <20200922062437.GM6402@protected.rcdrun.com> References: <4be18b5f-dc07-2703-a2de-1ed08916ebdf@gmail.com> <20200921170740.GA3551@protected.rcdrun.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18250"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.14.0 (2020-05-02) Cc: nicola.manca85@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 22 08:26:21 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kKbkr-0004dV-GS for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 08:26:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51982 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKbkq-0004tM-In for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 02:26:20 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52686) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKbjP-0004HY-Pr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 02:24:51 -0400 Original-Received: from stw1.rcdrun.com ([217.170.207.13]:37075) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kKbjN-0000EC-9Q; Tue, 22 Sep 2020 02:24:50 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost ([::ffff:197.157.0.18]) (AUTH: PLAIN securesender, TLS: TLS1.2,256bits,ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) by stw1.rcdrun.com with ESMTPSA id 0000000000056140.000000005F6998AB.00003FA8; Mon, 21 Sep 2020 23:24:43 -0700 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=217.170.207.13; envelope-from=bugs@gnu.support; helo=stw1.rcdrun.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/22 01:06:50 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -3 X-Spam_score: -0.4 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: (-0.4 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=1.5, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256314 Archived-At: * Richard Stallman [2020-09-22 06:40]: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > > Welcome! > > > This is the first time you run Emacs, please choose how to proceed: > > > > > > [] Go Vanilla! > > > (standard defaults, no customizations) > > > > > > [] Start Configuration Wizard > > > (set-up your .emacs configuration file interactively) > > > > > > [] Try Emacs in enhanced-mode > > > (run with a predefined configuration showing emacs potential) > > > > > > After this screen, the normal Emacs splash screen could me > > > presented. > > > No please. > > > I would not like that be included in Emacs. I am installing so many > > times Emacs, I need no installation wizards, > > I understand that you have no need for this -- but why do you object > to it? It is changing defaults and facing me and also the new users with complexities, in general, it gives an active obligation to the user versus the splash screen that does not disturb the user in the workflow. Emacs in my opinion does not need configuration assistant that user has to confront, as user installed Emacs for text editing purposes, nothing is required, and nobody needs to have .emacs to edit with Emacs, and I do it so often exactly that way, especially on new user accounts setup for those users. I need no .emacs in general as Emacs is self contained with its defaults. Traditionally I would avoid using "wizard", rather "assistant" like GNOME is using it, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wizard_(software) I would not mind if there exists package that is included inside of Emacs that can be started from splash screen and that is called "Emacs Configuration Assistant" and that guides a person through configuration options. Especially if such a package also speaks to the user and guides the user's mouse pointer or cursor and actually assists the user as artificial intelligence. Such functions should not confront the user, as that then becomes attention priority for the user, and user has obligation to do, even if it is to press the key to quit the configuration assistant, that is too much. No editor is confronting me with the request for action, I want to launch an editor, and be able to open a file or open buffer and start typing text. As user I am not supposed to think about enhancing whatever, or customization. If such functions of a "Emacs Configuration Assistant" are separate package that is shown on the splash screen, even if it is in the Help menu, I would not mind of it. > It would only require you to type a couple of characters. I would find it irritating to be asked as user to do anything, as user I have opened the editor with purpose to edit text, and not to play around with configurations. Finally, as user, I do not need configurations. As we speak of customization of configuration files, the function M-x customize could be made friendlier, by providing definitions of the terms that may not be easy to understand to users. Would the M-x customize be made friendlier in the sense that basics of editing options are separated from advanced demands, then that would also solve pretty much the issues of "Emacs Configuration Assistant" (not wizard). Example: Electricity Electric behavior for self inserting keys. And then there is no definition for electricity, I know it is fun, but to make it friendlier, it would be good to have a glossary and that user can move to the word and get the definition of that word. Killing Killing and yanking commands. It is funny and I like it, and need no changes, but to make it friendlier, one would need to provide definitions of such words in the customize, as for some users it could cause misunderstoods which could cause the person to give up. Editing Basic text editing facilities. Text Support for editing text files. Those two customization groups differ in their description only slightly if at all, so that is what is not friendly, as user I would not see easy difference. If I click on "Editing" I am referring to editing of text, if I click on Text, I am referring to editing of text. It is not friendly enough. If I click on Text, I am then faced with Ps Print which does not really refer to text only but to PS files and printing, and I am faced with Printing Utilities group, and validation of XML which does not necessarily fit into simple text mindset. None new function called "Emacs Configuration Wizard" which I would rather call "Emacs Configuration Assistant" can help in describing those customization groups better, or providing user with better understanding. What will make Emacs friendlier is better understanding of its functions and usage. Understanding is what makes friends. Thus if Emacs Configuration Wizard, or however it may be called is helping user to understand how Emacs works, that is very nice and helpful, but let the user decide to launch it, and not launch it because there is no .emacs or because user is launching Emacs first time. Put it in Help menu or on splash screen that it can be launched, just as I can open file from splash screen, but do not need to open the file. I am also not actively ask to participate in opening of files, or directories, which is basic text editing function, so I should not be asked to decide about whatever configurations and funny things to do. As LISP system, I do expect Emacs to have better assistive functions, it should speak, move the cursor and mouse pointer automatically to point out where is that menu item, it should open menues automatically and point to the user, even though Emacs does have all those assistive functions more than any other piece of software, some new audio-visual functions could make it friendlier. > Indeed, you could surely bypass that step by copying a certain > pre-prepared .emacs file into each new installation. That file > would indicate that the choice had already been made. Myself, I do have my personal .emacs, but I have many physical computers, and servers and my staff members and children and whoever is facing whatever text and notes writing, and I do not find it friendly to be faced with whatever answering on configuration wizards, especially I would not like anybody else like programmer deciding for me that I should configure some software, if it functions well without configuration. On any other computer and user account that is not my personal, I am using Emacs without .emacs as I expect text editor not to ask user anything special for its functions to work. Jean