From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Context menus and mouse-3 [was: Changes for emacs 28] Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 10:10:55 +0200 Message-ID: <20200916081055.va7ln6aszrqit7yy@Ergus> References: <87k0wwsrj4.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <87h7ryet7n.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <51a61ac0-3be5-4993-a981-fa2272b173d3@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="39154"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, Juri Linkov , philipk@posteo.net, Richard Stallman , =?utf-8?B?R8O2a3R1xJ8=?= Kayaalp , Arthur Miller , Dmitry Gutov , Gregory Heytings To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 16 10:12:24 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kISYC-000A5A-H7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2020 10:12:24 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41648 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kISYB-00029M-HE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2020 04:12:23 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56086) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kISX6-00016o-7q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2020 04:11:16 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic309-13.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.129.123]:44159) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kISX1-0003lb-Rg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 16 Sep 2020 04:11:15 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1600243870; bh=0j9B0iowa17p/jlH6AlLQ0/kC75eCEDgg6SdWf4u9kI=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=ph/kh9tSaLNV1c8VFPvUkhARRbgpIDoCcPkuI+BhA5axZx4TdkUC7ZJCGn19dawslmqYVg4l6y3OTLx2etIC0Im1C9ga1No8sVi4Cpp0xQj68nt7obIBhJpxM3r+dyqbEp6wKMco/hDI3Dn9XaDVZOtQwtvPR4TuSdPUVYlz7reYGt+wyvNmdzA30FPhnUVmXHY999vdWbg9EZ83CF4HtxpJ+6o/B5FQ/87ID4Er94HQ+oSlUDzLiXcoImClS9EglpXYqX/7zqhN9mDYqchTke57Rze69z9TGUpH845V1qVo8/a4UwFuW76rC+8eRlj9OO6huot6ZQIuzUnYdzw5LA== X-YMail-OSG: 9zO6UL8VM1lAguRW8zMf6mV_R9hW0FOERq9IqhgtlE6QffnEQKCNpG8CbmArXzb lenbBx.tSwh5i7USlebxanFJkZPfIVA99acmn42nYitEwMre58hO4..Xgv6BjaLYqPQyQO63Em49 Qzz8BsriiEv81fnJvP5aUvlWXEoQVt0FTThdfinz2mamltRJUVTnCwyEGYE5rpDh4EU6C.8EPFFv siVg2VjK.nWber3hA8IjMt9d1loNAGAZOffb1aMVVoaorntsqJugMOjc7PLfTupeTn_ykQ7zU3Xh KIv_jmDCxVv6teYl99DwIvE.wbFTo7o3ijQlV9BJr.icWZxJC.Ty9DHmVn1zHyXrLRVx7I0PUFGN KaE3PJrS8OaDULtObjx5FlJi9QjjYZ8RzeQz3rCa4Vt9ZENg.vekV5rLIrMV9qOIglGFzPATq2x. 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255835 Archived-At: On Wed, Sep 16, 2020 at 01:25:35AM +0000, Drew Adams wrote: >You're all over the map, Ergus, arguing abstractly, not >to the point - bringing in undo-redo; This was just an examples of discussions that have been for years in this mailing list and changes that the legacy users have opposed and vetoed with the argument of the "Emacs way is better" (like delete-selection-mode, transient-mark-mode and so on). >newbie-vs-better >behavior; hiding the context menu behind C-mouse-3, >which also doesn't work in a terminal This is so far the point of the discussion. >(mouse3.el uses mouse-3); It is not there and not easy to install for newcomers, normal users, or toggle enabled when we open with emacs -Q, or working in another machine. Emacs is supposed to be an editor, not a box from IKEA to assemble your own one by hand because people go to IKEA because they consider is cheaper not because they think it is better. If other companies offer the same furniture than IKEA, assembled and bring them to home at the same price then IKEA will probably close in a couple of years. >"moving the mouse to the toolbar to copy after >the selection" (huh? what's that about?); That's the only alternative we give to the mouse users for coping/paste: select with the mouse mixing clicks go to the [tool,menu]bar and click copy then go to the place, click, toolbar->paste instead of select, right-click->copy, go, right-click->paste. >"M-w and C-y >dont share any key like C-c/C-v"; "we need the two hand >to undo instead of C-z" ;... > Your previous argument was that pressing \click and shift+click\ for selecting was worst than \3 clicks + right mouse click\. So I just showed that there are worst inconsistencies/in-ergonomic/complicated bindings for other common and frequent actions and nobody (including me) cares. Here is another: do you think that killing is more frequent (to have it ready in double right click) than copy? >(two hands to undo?) Yes: C-/ and M-_ requires two hands while C-x u is a bit long to repeat. >Again: > >>> The impetus for this discussion was expectations >>> of new users to get a context menu on `mouse-3'. >>> (But newbies are not the only reason for such a >>> feature.) > >A context menu is useful for discoverability, including >by seasoned Emacs users (we are all discovering some >parts of Emacs). It should be easily configurable by >program and by users, adaptable for any mode or other >context. `mouse-3' is a good place for it, and not >only because that's where newbies expect it. > Agree >Emacs mouse selection, including extension & deletion, >are also useful. Both this and a `mouse-3' menu are >possible, with no sacrifice. Not sure there is a consistent way for this.