From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: tomas@tuxteam.de Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 23:22:26 +0200 Message-ID: <20200915212226.GB13214@tuxteam.de> References: <875z8k4wv8.fsf@posteo.net> <83pn6shjni.fsf@gnu.org> <20200911074445.GB5194@tuxteam.de> <87zh5uqdqm.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <20200913103046.GC14385@tuxteam.de> <20200915081228.GA7940@tuxteam.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="JP+T4n/bALQSJXh8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="9762"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 15 23:23:25 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kIIQ9-0002SE-6x for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 23:23:25 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60202 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIIQ8-0008VK-8F for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:23:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:45176) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIIPJ-000855-Rf for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:22:34 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:45736) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kIIPH-0001oT-0V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 17:22:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=6k7TkOjLUkB28k6DwN0SIg7zd9iaR6AtkynaNkyOb1A=; b=sSWV8E+bQHeP67iD02jmIBUUkbpwQ4wii8WZNrnDYG9zIcNQRQf+t7pESyHwPXg52RSjjDNtc0CYtGwDXM8Qr3Ql+QpNrLKs4K6kmsPLQVOIqOVh8Y7QRMRdPqKLcbUjBot2NUA2MfKOpZ9R2wR7eZlmiM/5BkHSqjoK+HddDmRSViMOhXxdgXs1TKpYdu1rofi9nvHYf4bYgtJEf0+nnSMEoS9khC7qD3PA+lEwVQ1pLb8+BzPEs8mlT1GrYf7SI4BefGAkQlxbWcnlz2Ai9XkLfVvAdXkrrEVd+N8peyb9Dvpg0Tl5KJ4pQwRpfi4Aqh8wAcHxxgW0geqFETsl2A==; Original-Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kIIPC-0003iM-9d; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 23:22:26 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=5.199.139.25; envelope-from=tomas@tuxteam.de; helo=mail.tuxteam.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/15 17:17:31 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255798 Archived-At: --JP+T4n/bALQSJXh8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Sep 15, 2020 at 08:45:56PM +0000, Gregory Heytings wrote: >=20 > > > >This is exactly the point I was putting in question: My take is > >that popularity is part of a giant feedback loop [...] > This is not clear at all IMO. When users choose to use VS Code or > Atom or Emacs or ..., they choose between a number of free (as in > beer) products. In such cases [1] I tend to think that marketing plays > little if any role, and that it's the quality of the product that > matters. More precisely, not the absolute quality, but the quality > for newcomers. As Chad wrote: "it's much easier/more intuitive to > get started" or "it's quick/easy/obvious how to get it to 'it > just-works'". [1] But "such cases" are the exception. When I worked at a bigger company, I /had/ to use (to me) horrible software. After a while, most people got used to it and enjoyed their Stockholm syndrome. I seem to be somewhat stubborn (which didn't make my life easier, mind you). [...] > IMO, it's pointless to discuss whether Emacs should be changed, or > how potential changes should be judged. In fact I don't understand > why such discussions/debates take place [...] No, no. I think such debates are important, to help shape Emacs's evolution. > flexible of all available editors, and can be adapted to all > imaginable needs. >=20 > So the only thing that should change in Emacs is that it should be > made easier (even more: as easy as possible) to customize and > understand for newcomers. In this we agree. Cheers - t --JP+T4n/bALQSJXh8 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAl9hMJIACgkQBcgs9XrR2kbfbgCfZlwflEvuVverrekpXwpCYXLQ 8ZwAn0ujTiThBN3OCT5jK+ySEaZb6CLh =NEcr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --JP+T4n/bALQSJXh8--