From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: tomas@tuxteam.de Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2020 10:12:28 +0200 Message-ID: <20200915081228.GA7940@tuxteam.de> References: <83lfhhijbl.fsf@gnu.org> <871rj9uz12.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <875z8k4wv8.fsf@posteo.net> <83pn6shjni.fsf@gnu.org> <20200911074445.GB5194@tuxteam.de> <87zh5uqdqm.fsf@mail.linkov.net> <20200913103046.GC14385@tuxteam.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="12537"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: EMACS development team , Juri Linkov To: chad Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 15 10:13:39 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kI65r-00039f-9O for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 10:13:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:40814 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kI65q-0004EK-Ck for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 04:13:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47746) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kI65A-0002E5-Ql for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 04:12:57 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:44085) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kI658-0001XJ-PG for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 04:12:56 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=uyokpggkJNZxKDndCWdibhpoStcTYyDFqUD9p/JuD7U=; b=BbIMKN0lF2wcZZyXAgaZtSgvk55SbCC32otd46g8ZUK8Ia4wgXyKvMgdJIkCGQN2t1cvC05CAVvqyHcytbhZIwfxehb9GvCIjOSBTit23qxiYR3f8ucYRSrclzoT2zPHvk+8aECqjUrJg3Vl/uAkxyXtk5RHriQoxzdxwua9Zg20xV6i0zSutD9ZtfrNLGGUJ2OqMiYEFVbf6VhdEj6kv9c9MY7Wrk9ZphV84AG5FeFD2ZMKrHDG8Z5Hrr/jTwVlbv+a91CAd4IZgI8yQJE9lSPRTOalztVPGt/ejeEBQF3Qx3PMDZ+3JQ7jbiDrXMUX8bhCqQlSazezH61d6UO2DQ==; Original-Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kI64i-0002J2-Ih; Tue, 15 Sep 2020 10:12:28 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Received-SPF: pass client-ip=5.199.139.25; envelope-from=tomas@tuxteam.de; helo=mail.tuxteam.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/15 04:12:42 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255720 Archived-At: --+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 11:45:27AM -0700, chad wrote: > On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 3:31 AM wrote: >=20 > > But the argument "it's more popular, so it must be better" is too naive= , I > > think. [...] > try emacs but go (back) to VSCode, because ...". Usually, that sentence > ends in some form of "it's much easier/more intuitive to get started" or > "it's quick/easy/obvious how to get it to 'it just-works'". >=20 > In other words, the popularity is a symptom, not a cause. This is exactly the point I was putting in question: My take is that popularity is part of a giant feedback loop, so it's *both*, a symptom and a cause. And a (non-negligible) set of forces driving that feedback loop are the marketing departments of big corps [1]. They wouldn't be doing their jobs if it weren't so. Failing to see this leads to this over-eager "how can we change Emacs to make it more popular" thing, instead of to a more balanced view, where potential changes are judged against a more complete set of principles and goals (newcomer friendliness surely being one of them!). [...] Cheers [1] Whose goals and values don't always align with ours, to put it politely. - t --+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAl9gd2wACgkQBcgs9XrR2kbJyQCfWW9UNNuZj3RiG55hmfuDuVMD a4QAnR3Q4CdD/Ns6NnW2nfqCOgOda1iV =xNjR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --+HP7ph2BbKc20aGI--