From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: tomas@tuxteam.de Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:30:46 +0200 Message-ID: <20200913103046.GC14385@tuxteam.de> References: <48ed4897-356c-4669-a330-1fdb5d65402b@default> <83lfhhijbl.fsf@gnu.org> <871rj9uz12.fsf@gkayaalp.com> <875z8k4wv8.fsf@posteo.net> <83pn6shjni.fsf@gnu.org> <20200911074445.GB5194@tuxteam.de> <87zh5uqdqm.fsf@mail.linkov.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="UPT3ojh+0CqEDtpF" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24568"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Juri Linkov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 13 12:31:39 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kHPIJ-0006JH-9m for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:31:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35282 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHPII-00031z-Aa for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 06:31:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60872) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHPHc-0002ZN-7S for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 06:30:56 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:38455) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kHPHZ-0005Cl-TV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 06:30:55 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=ACTrgcoBTVIoIQJpDjWvNr6Q1FHAagkB0DI9j54jvpo=; b=pFItoFtLtq9YSIQxR7nO5h9WDXK5qytBSY+oeo/+lmk9jHke9i49lsxqARTVHTsEY6vUd3JnG9wJTs1VOpYpmYrt3f5Q1o5zpZis4ewzn8EfKPQ+phWu36yT9Sh9zHYfQIcwAhFoD7irnTJceLvVi2bMAiIX9ONcesuSn3GOQEYrju2BWX9LCaCBnB1uxkoq3T9rLu6qBo8r5bpXXTkQtLutUJtbxsUAaXcerFZ2f+acCIA3ZrjOVp8Yu9pJtQeIR13zgRbYYMwkfU6gf8F2WV0okL949bRVgIagzWkYgm2capmvAohfV1ClD0s1UPMJjdK54dEKZ8DUA6TKlb04dw==; Original-Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kHPHX-00068l-ER; Sun, 13 Sep 2020 12:30:51 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87zh5uqdqm.fsf@mail.linkov.net> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=5.199.139.25; envelope-from=tomas@tuxteam.de; helo=mail.tuxteam.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/13 06:30:52 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255454 Archived-At: --UPT3ojh+0CqEDtpF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 11:41:45AM +0300, Juri Linkov wrote: > >> > I think that this is the case, most programmes seem to use the > >> > "Hamburger Menu"[0] instead of a transitional top-menu. I'm not sure > >> > what the reason for this change was, but I have a hunch one of the > >> > motivating reasons was the attempt to merge applications and the win= dow > >> > frames >=20 > If the menu-bar isn't displayed then we could display the Hamburger icon > in the tool-bar, and clicking on it will pop-up the menu with items from > the menu-bar, so users won't need to display both menu-bar and tool-bar. >=20 > > Me? I'd say the Hamburger menu is the latest fad, to be taken over > > next year by the Sushi menu >=20 > Unlike the Hamburger menu that has three sticks, > the Sushi menu icon should have two chopsticks. Perhaps with something mushy and fishy in-between, to differentiate it from the spring-roll menu. On a more serious note, what I wanted to point out is that there are many forces shaping what is currently perceived as "usage friendly". Some of them stem from ergonomy research (which, of course, focuses on some population already exposed to software "out there", so it's part of a feedback loop), some of it stems =66rom some manufacturer's attempt to differentiate itself, to grow sales, some of it, even, from a strategy of appealing to potential decision takers (who are /not/ those who have to use the sofware later). As we focus on user freedom here, not all those forces are our friends. Some are, some are not. The table TEC posted (Message-ID: <87o8maj1kh.fsf@gmail.com>) is very interesting. Do you think the popularity of vscode and vs (both at the list's top) stems from the colours? Or rather from the fact that there is an incredibly rich behemoth behind both of them and that many developers are working, directly or indirectly for it? Or from some mixture of both? Microsoft has a long record of trying to suck in users into their dependency from them. It's their business model. The fact that Microsoft put 7 billions on the table to acquire Github should be telling, in itself. A platform which transforms Git's inherently decentralised model into a centralised service (when I worked for some big company, developers there saw Github as a synonym for git, and that was before the acquisition). Exchange Microsoft for any other company whose revenue comes =66rom dependent users, there are many. The latter runs counter our core principles, I think. I'm not arguing that Emacs shoud make it hard for people coming =66rom vscode, on the contrary. But the argument "it's more popular, so it must be better" is too naive, I think. Cheers - t --UPT3ojh+0CqEDtpF Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAl9d9NYACgkQBcgs9XrR2kbDkACcDZWQRxNCB/Jsnjd+8mgQwR2G XnoAn3XD9VR7/kxjf6CsVq6T50468/Dn =BumC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --UPT3ojh+0CqEDtpF--