From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: "modern" colors Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 21:46:52 +0200 Message-ID: <20200912194652.nrcx2fjg7n4j54ns@Ergus> References: <20200910102000.2t6tsju745xutg7u@Ergus> <20200910110832.ko66gqnqo4l664d6@Ergus> <20200911134225.zhnlq7cdhmu2iraj@Ergus> <20200911221435.go7b5kz2zcvxp2ft@Ergus> <20200912153723.ymnq3i5pugqf7lsy@Ergus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36722"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, ghe@sdf.org, tecosaur@gmail.com, casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Alfred M. 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List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255400 Archived-At: On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 01:02:54PM -0400, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > > On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 10:52:37AM -0400, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: >Let me try to reiterate again, could you point out a handful of >differences in colors and/or fonts (to keep it simple) between Emacs >and some other editor (one is fine, several would be interesting too >but I understand that can be taxing) that you find more modern than in >Emacs? > You ask what is considered "modern". I just gave you some points. Then you ask why and question the points. Sorry I can't tell why people prefer blue or dark background today or small icons or hamburger menus. I just know they like them and all the editors more or less successful these days are all black/dark. Maybe they prefer those because is what they see more frequently and they get familiar with that or because white light burn their eyes. >I do not understand what you are saying here. You said that "adding >an * to the filename" would solve an issue -- that is already done >_today_ (and for decades in Emacs). > I sent some links in a previous mail with several modeline styles and reimplementations. And said that all the distros (doom, spacemacs, etc) start fully reimplementing the modeline (less text more icon and colors). I use emacs from the terminal only, so the modeline will never have icon or fancy helps for me. But I am not talking in my name. The * in the name is just a detail most users are used to these days. If most editors had a modeline with a -UU-:**--F1 at the beginning and people prefer that and understand that; then will be perfect. But that's not the case. > >And in Emacs we do it in a similar fashion. I've seen that some put >"modified" in the title bar, some show it differently -- indeed, I >think every single editor I can think of does it differently. > If you can't see that out method is much more cryptic and oriented to text; then ok. But don't ask me then what is modern or familiar for users because this one is one of the most obvious. I never said it is more or less functional... juts too old fashioned and unfamiliar. > > Lock back in this same thread there was a long discussion about > that. The supporters of light colors brought some articles about > astigmatism and so on, while the others bring different ones. > >Yes, and there too it was asked about the background to this research >-- and it too was underwhelming. > Whatever > This is actually what is being discussed. Any way just look at the > popular downloaded emacs themes the so called "distros", and the > actual "top" editors. Sourceforge is also kind of "old" as users > prefer github (which is actually working in a dark mode > too). Understand that I never said we should set dark themes by > default; I just replied what young developers consider "old". > >I know plenty of developers in their twenties that think that dark >backgrounds are "old terminal backgrounds". That is why I am asking >for actual research, and not just your or my experience. Downloads >are not statistics. > If you have method to make a market study around will be perfect. I just see that the application most users like are dark. Sublime, Atom, VSCode and ClIon all of them bring the dark option and in my work (around 300 programmers) most of the screens are dark. The proprietary application that make market studies (like facebook) invested time and resources creating a new interface with what now is considered "modern" (clean icons, flat colors, not shadows, and dark theme) Why people prefer dark today?. I don't know/care. > >With source forges I meant in general, not Sourceforge specifically. > >And by your own accord, since some are only now working on dark-mode >themes, it cannot have been such an important thing for them. Doesn't >this somewhat contradict the claim that this is the preference by the >majority of people? > Preferences change with time. WinXP was pretty in it's time then the menus became transparent and clear and now they are going back to flat colors and corners. In 10 years maybe orange will be the new black. Or google plays the color card as apple did with the white earphones. > > It is missing only in gvim and emacs in my experience. > >I don't use that many programs, but don't forget xterm. > I am the only person I know personally still uses xterm. Most users I know prefer gnome-terminal or terminator urxvt or xfce-terminal. It is sat, but true. I actually use xterm only because of emacs compatibility recommendation in this list some time ago. But xterm has the similar problems. In spite of it is probably the most powerful terminal around. The defaults are terrible, copy text there is complex without a plugin and a config, the default font is very tiny based in some system defaults, the default colors are problematic and the right click doesn't work as in the others. The config in Xdefaults has a weird syntax and some new features are not available. Also the developer is very kind, but there is not community or git repo for the developement. So xterm can't be taken as an example these days. > > So maybe 30 years ago it wasn't standard but today it is. > >Dare say that none of those programs existed 30 years ago, but you are >confusing the behaviour of individual programs with the general >behaviour of the system which I was refering to, and a historical >context where the defaults where chosen. > I never complain for the reasons in a default; because usually they were discussed and there are very good arguments for them. But the historical arguments can't be the reason to keep everything unchanged and reject new styles, ideas methods and general evolution. The arguments must be based on user needs, preferences or technical.