From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Interactive guide for new users Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 16:17:58 +0200 Message-ID: <20200912141758.47dqojov5ivabwyz@Ergus> References: <8620B5CD-CA92-46BF-80A8-DBE7052F4CA6@gmail.com> <83d02re2uk.fsf@gnu.org> <838sdfdzxo.fsf@gnu.org> <20200912121603.bsp53vgfwj3y62in@Ergus> <831rj7dvhg.fsf@gnu.org> <20200912131802.fiowctrzc2yx4ozu@Ergus> <83y2lfcdq2.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="8315"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: ghe@sdf.org, casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 12 16:19:36 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kH6NL-00020U-TN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 16:19:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:37166 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kH6NK-0006ol-W7 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 10:19:35 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60352) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kH6Mr-0006Oa-Af for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 10:19:05 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic305-2.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.133.41]:38392) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kH6Mn-0003WO-Vu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 10:19:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1599920339; bh=/TTJ3JJ5FJ3Kv5L99fyMNLrYhW9SZg2cqD3JensTo4o=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=b06wsm3V9TOl6Bqdx9+Rt4h7vpRu6bFra5KBfHY4FYlnqod1bQ50pIBF9ho0UorcjFpWi9/KgwagEYtPO1BEPGsh8DInaA4h5eFz5yETFXG/9yU2lt7jMViscy5H/eVFafGU4sz38yBxSCQxh3edMY2o65GnkOBxkZmK8TL7+EYh2Z32LoAXzqAd5uG0pxbC2Cl9AVwvlU4vivUPK+Ey4Gar2jM0F6/DH5yBgeJcVA8P7Xo0moTrlRxLcQWW7JTKIIRLwtFQZ5t50c1u0e/uXaCjz96ipck13YABZMU1Xm45+2vG8kCq9VS94QAeRWbbovvCRhJoW4qPqQgAjNvbyg== X-YMail-OSG: Ssl.tDcVM1l899Tz3ma3NAKotVpmARJ8kIod09aLWRh9xlXM8CGc.IDZQh_sQDo 1P8YY6PVskeWsoHhe.HlPaOXrTnYa3ghJ66uRdZISCIYgccE5YcArmlnNMmIwLpAvhp74KkB82If EjeKZXGcqMcDudieo_8nLxmIHWEhmEChd7i0eOemsVnrEvcHFEsZXRyerLkIemjTOvRj5qJ2NFk5 ryrBIySxl64U6v7LFotSrPd9TBS9AJj6s9watdTySDSZhgB3z6xyizL3Q1NdvC5M0NGoZu3rf8.F nRz8hIZLxub666CHb1Ioi3opR8CdXN77JjczG06Ypygj0KfCYCuuzWcF39I8gnIxIC3ZwQ.QzpcN dmD5xR.Hm13wMXy4ljNWUG7xsmw2Y1r7IIF9jwR8aoKYGuvCP7DmmqFso.HbTeAuBlf65nFD5l7C 5N81R17.LSvzXsgkIf9Puvh_yrIz125NbsXGvVF7fo0uugMTXF4NbAvywcGW7ClQ9MlJU_mL9QPc LG7wo0MeaPdSmwhbV0Ph.j_Df2GHpb3jUSOQM7TL5RF0qU49haYPwiQbaLf64MYfHNzKWeq429A7 ZO4eMdJE3Q52.LBtSpQEv_lwsWhUGz2Vd9cS8NVSWcqEZRgtwf9_yqrHgeTBhU95TpOe2NWdY9tC 6bsfhU6b1SMni9i47wI.dZ8dOOt1s55q_LrM8.LqP23KoFM5I5rTPHCo2AVuHJ.mi1sobzzA58pF lq56C4eIm5MyxQEr6BoiNcC9y66_bgoNOgrpZauv0GqPYhLqoivUweu4O77cp3Qjb7kUF_FArAjQ 0mXDbgskT.9hoI4Oi959a3RDKru9dku_ZjWc_enLmn Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic305.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 14:18:59 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp410.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 712279f9084a3bb646f61462cd0b23aa; Sat, 12 Sep 2020 14:18:03 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83y2lfcdq2.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16583 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.6.133.41; envelope-from=spacibba@aol.com; helo=sonic305-2.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/12 10:19:00 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -10 X-Spam_score: -1.1 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:255351 Archived-At: On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 04:43:33PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Sat, 12 Sep 2020 15:18:02 +0200 >> From: Ergus >> Cc: ghe@sdf.org, casouri@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org >> >> >"Spirit" is not what's important here, IMO. What's important is the >> >visual appearance and the available actions and their effects. What I >> >see out there is similar to Company, and quite different from >> >icomplete-mode, even when augmented by the vertical sub-mode. >> >> We have xref-find-apropos and completion-at-point. But icomplete use is >> totally different to company. >> >> icomplete is more a minibuffer completion engine useful while tipping >> commands, of lookign for files. There a company panel is uncomfortable. >> >> While company-mode is a "suggestion menu" while editing. Maybe our error >> have been to consider both as a single "feature". > >We are miscommunicating. I said "similar to Company", meaning that >the completion drops down a vertical list of candidates that overlays >the rest of the display. AFAIK, no existing completion package offers >something similar. Sorry to bother with this. But I don't see how what you describe defers from Company. I mean, what is missing in company or what is different from your desired behavior? I agree that company needs some work, maybe check the bindings and the default colors. >So either we implement something similar (and >offer it in that initial tour as an option), or we have to live with >the fact that users will not find in Emacs completion that they expect >to see. In the latter case, I wonder why icomplete is deemed a step >in the right direction, for reasons I already described: it's too >complicated and confusion, IMO. icomplete is the best we have embedded. If we don't add avy + counsel we need to improve it as much as we can for the OOTB experience without external packages. Compared to ido it integrates much better, is simpler and uses all the new completion infrastructure. With some minimal changes icomplete emulates ido with much simpler code. IMO it is the best embedded minibuffer completion we have that we can improve easily. At the end we will always need a completion engine for the minibuffer anyway. Sooner or later the user will need an M-x.