From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2020 18:57:23 +0200 Message-ID: <20200909165723.kdnwicwvplmezusr@Ergus> References: <87y2lkb6kb.fsf@gmail.com> <9A4FA038-CCFD-45DF-8B57-E348AFF951D9@gmail.com> <87sgbsb0eb.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="16157"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: TEC , Gregory Heytings , Yuan Fu , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 09 18:58:13 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kG3QB-00042L-Lr for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 18:58:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59544 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kG3QA-000491-ND for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 12:58:10 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37134) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kG3Pg-0003iH-Rj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 12:57:40 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic301-3.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.129.42]:34114) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kG3Pd-0004SW-FX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 12:57:40 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1599670654; bh=5tNSWLYXU+tGPErUGebg/tdQE/Re80yYRG9+AvTg7Io=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=H7U9Y2WLwEUtNOd/c9yAMWFU8piIIJrtash20boqrfEyFY+4yY89PisjMKHxf48FEKXFz3eMTfNgxqoQdgDZ59pIB/HMSihRE8snyiFn47ayDsok/qM32W/2awRES9DcBbkc5WavFNyOjvoO5Gx98qJ0I94uamshRQQhhNWaw6YhtQ51riCSa0pGeU2lM3/RGpzGOZkecR2Ef8RJjXL3ZjsBE8H4G6podxGiVmANCjxqPn1Vjac6vHTzAU3FIE1m6TyzFlBW07ln0q7KdlmtIoglwCDUM+7Z6nn+/lfX2Ygqkysj3jPzSkhQNnk9s8tAvnSrEYHwdPP2Kw374GFpug== X-YMail-OSG: BaTci90VM1lVEMboguz7gHr2k30rs8P7rYfUdPmB4WZXhcTnVd6ZxIP8QK2OxF0 KoyRdu.875rnEHo5Y6KCQSXuPTYN5ehrcpaxwpxs4BLZ_ZIb0zQdED2iEqVE3xtSMln4PQBsaiG_ 9CuKpJ_EB_qLKSp6PLo85n7Xu2TQlCmxbq3o1xFz_rR87HZAoru8nssk6VOIXEuDXI.4n7hXfJ.w mQoRnEsM_wT9w3mUnnOYflFungDDnt9VXjv5Dj1hqTvSwOaHKFnS5dEAvHFXAoRqmO6KAqydAeX9 o4Cy.KDV930CHlC2tAsheSqBuv0RtfcoqBHgHFY1nknAk.PM69rq9ntunnGwazLMTT95Dpni6z1c LSPug1R8kD9AIQJt0JhF2Kig0Gyo72WRnwHU_R2SmLCF_P5_WS6ilpxaroAPtzpMl8chLqAZi17_ JY3LQnKMsNctYBL4CptmvItRHyHlEZPaxvjJ8yZtlarZNmq6yZA2kY8uEaZ.fWFk4s1Edjp4nz98 SIsIdhgSW5SXhHhocVlCxqIyGl5eqQqh8eQ3dkYYzeg1faehbBF_56QTZyfHRLoXCLE_R2kefRg6 eC.abouAaTKEuoy8I_D3wXy04VkmPAA60k5tpx1TQPnM5TMfZ5gXyngh4VWXhR0LnJ6nxaWMykJy 82.dq5eXAVIdlzcXr.el69NIbnMlJenPb.A.01Nn0jNgszHLOc0ven.d0lvc9FQ.ojaT48vi3tM8 JBwsnsvKGJgeLWVw43m_oQBrHC55Hur8nmWkVvD_PcwjMpfhzWL46JGZKQa.bvAjz06NV7HM5VaE pzE7o.rf6gDQfrc6B0bCNitNChSQmu8HGkKnwRNmbA Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 9 Sep 2020 16:57:34 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp403.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d0cfd7f8e90e1bce8709151e249132f1; Wed, 09 Sep 2020 16:57:33 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16583 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.6.129.42; envelope-from=spacibba@aol.com; helo=sonic301-3.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/09 12:01:53 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254908 Archived-At: On Wed, Sep 09, 2020 at 12:05:54PM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: >Thanks, TEC, I found it quite useful. Further comments and questions below. > >> * Org-mode, my ramp into Emacs pt.1 - vanilla >> - I'd heard about Org-mode as a thing markdown + execution >> - Maybe this could be better than Jupyter? >> - However... I didn't like Spacemacs >> - Removed Spacemacs >> - Typed 'emacs' into a terminal > >So far so good. > >> - Oh, this looks old. > >Fair enough. I don't think we (Emacs community) are in a position to >make it look "modern" and sexy. I know I'm not because my notion of >"modern and sexy" is quite outmoded ;-) > >But "looks old" is usually not a deal breaker, just a negative >first impression. > Actually spacemacs made it to look a bit more modern by just changing some colors. >> - Successfully opened a file >> + Where are the line numbers? > >Interesting. It would never occur to me to expect line numbers in >a text editor. When and why did line numbers become fashionable? >[ My guess is something like "ever since shortscreens became the only > option, creating a void in the horizontal space that needed > filling" ;-) ] > >I don't oppose enabling line numbers by default, but I do find line >numbers to be an awful waste of valuable screen real estate. > I use line numbers, but instead of enabling them by default we could make it very very accessible in the toolbar or initial config dialog. >> + Why aren't I given much information on the file > >Could you be more specific in terms of the particular information that >you felt Emacs failed to give (and maybe how you expected it to be given)? > >> + Where's the completion, the linting, etc. > >Do I understand you right that you expected company+eglot+flymake to be >enabled (and configured) by default? > >I personally find this to be the most glaring concrete problem in >Emacs nowadays. > Again we just don't need to enable them by default, but just make them easier to config. I still find myself in the dichotomy between company or auto-complete modes after 6 years in emacs. flymake is good enough, but not very easy to find on the beginning, and it still requires a lot of work. Also most of the documentation around recommends using flycheck and actually for me it works much better in most of the situations and languages I use. >> - Tried to execute a command interactively (forget which command) >> + Typed M-x >> + Wait, this is just a text box >> + I don't know commands off by heart! >> + I want to be able to type key terms and see options! > >How much of this would be satisfied by icomplete-mode together with the >`substring` completion-style (which would be a smaller change to >the UI than something like helm-M-x or counsel-M-x). > Yes please.. If you think that icomplete/fido-mode can be improved somehow, just make specific requests. >> - Having an initialisation† file, well commented such that *without knowing >> anything about Emacs* I could have Emacs be set up such that I could >> actually try it with familiar tasks and not be underwhelmed, or have >> to deal with sudden troubleshooting > >Maybe we could have a "default init file" (consisting of nothing but >commented out code snippets, accompanied by actual comments explaining >them)? > This is why I have been asking for use-package integration. As a starting point this is the easier we can provide to starters to find/know about the different options and modes. >> †The important bit about this file is that it let me declare which >> bundles of functionality I want easily, and without having to parse >> much unfamiliar lisp (both Spacemacs and Vanilla fail in this regard, >> but in different ways). > >Hmm... a "default init file" would still use "unfamiliar Lisp", I'm afraid. > with use-packages the lisp knowledge needed to configure is minimal. Just to understand (this detail) >> - Having good 'discoverability enhancements' used by default >> - counsel for M-x > >IIUC this is similar to enabling icomplete-vertical and >icomplete-show-matches-on-no-input, and maybe using a regexp >completion style? > There is not icomplete-vertical yet ;). Any way icomplete is too far to compete with counsel/ivy/swiper in functionality and termination level. (at the moment icomplete is Donald Duck and counsel is James Bond). I don't ask to add counsel to vanilla because it requires many external optional dependencies that I would never like to see in vanilla and retards the startup time. >> - Used Discord for it's community, a recent chat-app which I recognised >> (I'm still warming up to mailing lists). > >Definitely a non-starter since it's proprietary. >There are obviously acceptable alternatives. > >I think an important aspect is to find a communication medium that can >be used from Emacs. IRC and Email do satisfy this criteria. >Whenever I have to write text outside Emacs I feel hampered. > > Emacs has even a telegram client, jabber client, and IRC... so of course any method we use to communicate must have an emacs client, a web or desktop client and a mobile client. > Stefan > >