From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: A new user perspective about "Changes for emacs 28" Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 20:08:12 +0200 Message-ID: <20200907180812.5tfylspp7i6vl4o3@Ergus> References: <1ca462fa-0f9e-3c18-6386-f43f49388b2f@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="26923"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Nicola Manca Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 07 20:09:29 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kFLa4-0006t3-A0 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 20:09:28 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:34424 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFLa3-0002ST-Ct for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 14:09:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39586) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFLZ3-00016A-Ly for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 14:08:25 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic312-21.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.128.83]:44542) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFLZ0-0002sx-I0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 14:08:24 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1599502099; bh=6Bbh7hmbiLMsdhvGT0NSyIh/M6Qqt40hZdRcsltA5Wg=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=JfJd4lOjaN9ET15SK8xnIiOXFrr19Nb/HVU0uyhw/MRek1fh77t4BNUQy5JBR/U9bOaXNpvY6oEpvKWUj/lu8shoRFeKXmPs6DQelsvu1t+eZuZqVI7UZoyNWRlRLXxmtdT7IxhDxaP3j0AD6HQM3khif0gFioc26ereBdhmGbrUljeECpuEX6SMss59i3pU3LWXEXufxJNCSK9+IcyXn70j5k15MRw9I4I+2qLiziWTm6LlEZA3RttOUWQteKzTufln6o1UUuTjMot8ONI71RsZ5pHDaIfC9widClzcvfKHJGDph7xcUnLFdkbXQ0DSjTRjhJPePMmBSLBIvKovaA== X-YMail-OSG: .Mrwpb0VM1ni6RfnEak55Z8R4slt1JxR7CfNrg7RJgQlGY3Pn59BlMyqaAWG0gD GEY81XAnan4x9UYRkVZv_Z8inIp1WQuOF0erersYAJqMVIN_MCWcEhE_Z009naDI5_D4bnv9pzUv s5uDYZwkECyxGOT2qEKeWgH_d_1mPEvih6CrhNZUCL1avwDpFb1H_VvPEec.QxEUi_u5PBscbzJg jI4qhjevDZ.UM3W1cwNfE1kLUvldvp1Q0K7nPF0WqaIndwfbSCvAxhN4fXTdowUE3kJnBYVghMv1 yAiQbCPPsmwDnbF3mQv98voNibL8ULZ0L5FzxO64664YX8T3JkY7zBaWEmbq__ufJ5WYzbrk9dfl E3TPynRQQgKjvlReVUphl9EuBMMy2.vlx3MYsbE.u6V9juIRFW74ntnDoKaK20qV_6JQd6sg2zXm uEwpC_wViYc82FgmmvVxIoEKlrwDgvzXU0a4fLttSxnBLKXHlCOUljlo4ZNYAQ0lxydsIFzHLvW4 43ynBq7u98SD6jmnphxq.cdtY0sM3E1aUEEssM2U19NrcI5dvZ14y0osFJQvvc1T9XZrvSIfZU0M YBWuWpkIzh0SqzsXsQqHpQpc42NYYavS9hrZ.BCRLHJ9uiKwBl_xaNVIlok_RuydvYi9sxEYbgXd oDi_szCRnbHovOe04rn7mjkCCpfS8e.MYS0UdZDvt58vwUJcHwR.N0GQ1Jk8bD8mMn5Qu7nb3UeG NP7mEy6epnSp46kD9d0PITM5BrpOI1.ZSUaBb.rg4k3_r0Fqoju4M6525UMWXCQ0mLiFpDnC3H4c QiSk6SrzZGIjvOA6M6aUVrtbvipy_AzJCBQK7kab.b Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 18:08:19 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp418.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0c75664085f2f5502c24334b7be07274; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 18:08:16 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1ca462fa-0f9e-3c18-6386-f43f49388b2f@gmail.com> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16565 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.6.128.83; envelope-from=spacibba@aol.com; helo=sonic312-21.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/07 14:08:19 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254668 Archived-At: On Mon, Sep 07, 2020 at 06:45:59PM +0200, Nicola Manca wrote: Hi Nicola: I totally agree with you in all your points because when I started my experience was exactly the same. Actually I stayed because I didn't have internet in my country and I couldn't install anything else.. and vim has modes ;p Just some technical quotes/comments: >These are just the first examples that came up in my mind: >- undo-tree-mode Undo tree had some problems in the past. But if you want the basic undo/redo behavior there is something already in vanilla (as usual a bit hidden): (global-set-key [remap undo] 'undo-only) (global-set-key (kbd "C-M-_") 'undo-redo) which I discovered after asking here and fighting with undo tree for almost a year. >- which-key-mode Yes, yes!! sadly it is not even in elpa. But I know that for a new user this is 90% of his time the first days. "Learn where is everything". Probably this is the only feature I really miss in elpa or even in vanilla because when it is more needed is when the user doesn't know how to install a package yet. >- ido-mode (everywhere) We have had some "issues" with ido support and integration with the modern completion infrastructure. I am working in the default completion infrastructure and icomplete/fido to improve them a bit (keeping things simple) and make "fido more ido" when possible. >- helm-M-x This overlap some functionalities of ido right? Any way Helm will not come to vanilla due to copyright issues... But we can improve icomplete and completions (as we are doing, but it worth nothing if the users doesn't find the differences). I think that in the best case (being realistic) ivy is closer than helm to come to vanilla as it is already in elpa and Oleh has already contributed before. >I've not the technical skills to do this, maybe someone out there >can and want. You still can contribute in many ways: - Documentation - Testing - Trying and reporting issues in newer features. (ej: trying fido-mode and reporting the issues and differences with ido you find) - Reporting bugs - Replying to new users in the "help" list. - Contacting melpa developers to add their features to elpa or vanilla if you think they worth. Software is not only code... if we had a graphical designer here half of the discussion about the themes will be solved faster. > >best wishes >Nicola >