From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 18:31:09 +0200 Message-ID: <20200907163109.k6jzzb6xj76xiqou@Ergus> References: <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq.ref@Ergus> <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq@Ergus> <83lfhnnew7.fsf@gnu.org> <20200906163418.3p2wuygb4osm76wa@Ergus> <20200906203807.u237c3h22oxwtmba@Ergus> <87wo15adtj.fsf@rabkins.net> <20200907142544.eeiyojga2bbgkaua@Ergus> <87lfhlaa27.fsf@rabkins.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13724"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Yoni Rabkin Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 07 18:32:14 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kFK3x-0003Tc-TL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 18:32:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:44014 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFK3w-0006XN-Sx for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 12:32:12 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47384) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFK3A-0005Fg-6L for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 12:31:24 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic309-14.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.129.124]:38174) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFK36-0007Rn-U3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 12:31:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1599496277; bh=OsnG7r9cJRQdzJjqx77r1JVlgb0DT+ZjTgXHqlR0VGg=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=YjUBspUHITP+9DqBExoQVaFMxGioryxJgq0XXHHSNLz/vbejF3mjwgslP1oJmva9essRFkEvYYX7Rz3EFEbesXEDizqD+BqZv5fjUh89Zw3O93ZNLgbc2FblH/dYA4Y3+QCBmQzU4wrPb8Dg+iIjMAeMR1DkczllxA6CvPpu5fO4HWUmNlAbtltKTEh0DXSQ4GB65GaCbMonw+an5VDnYLvImm3cfXwVU35jvaicFMg85UlfdAGMM221HykskxoC40iQL6Nish9MFPl+zURPv/B4Z0rEYzOcVUmmxfSyzSTE3Q4mLshKQv8ReeYKYvemkt9PDdI3U+sB5zTzoixCEw== X-YMail-OSG: _8aQnYIVM1nEOuM8C0LNCYvqpYgqBEGCuvdEw0txvlNbzvBcEwVVvQhmQ5yWAB2 AVtjCeciYwk3BQlTt183EujfTHJGfj8KdmgqMCFw_ZTJ3QsEDTSUBVbbptuSIZ9PlKM31skCL._0 snijloREXuXWDdW68rOVeG5N9jIVMzReg1i8.puVfjuyjzS.0LF28pmCAwVdEY0orQ8e48pyKrtV .0ODd_Lz3MmB72AdTS0i9Ghb7_ZlNULa2L_lh3_I2Ej7wWqHpDCzRijw8YnA94QwsrcaDSBk5U_G 9oS2DMsTMLtaHSfft_QeRijDwKRzLhE_.L5j5TF0q3Zb4SO.qTlO3bf6m54MbnfqRSKVpqyogrEA zBMUhW3494.BKDear282ORBFNOFLL4W1wyRbN5lr.TUhUashxi_.THTc0SWeHf0kiieSVXCiHgWS LNB44n4YFHELLi6hRX1ceuutQS0YFsEWvCU2AlcPLEpozMC1Yqd0QvewLakgTtIHCPL4Ypu8i0FU Un3MC1denlAgYBl0leTjAqRS1DkZ2da4GTLPDNaZYm.DTKEg_DuVQxTQxzjDyu8mqP3C92_0xNMT d8QOwCAKL5QfxnbPQklNN7JgvRUwQhypOG4OErjNsIVQ.55Y2XN14hFop15EirZBYi.hkpKbCy.g 8sSAgzSNcEdwEqbJBPTG7H4PO4HNsJQf.uU3KFyhiPBfrjuIWr6te4NiOxrStMvsnFfXFfQKNMVs PVP_Y6yEwpH71jBcDE0am5vETKFLZS1FzvjyqMP3_sLAcqYix9NQ2fJuPHPG29Cg4l.d0ntxP1Ae GhV2GOXqnt9arp8c5MkWks6lvrouKYhu5mMtHDc4PP Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 16:31:17 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp414.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f28d123a64d2e407641ee074cb149f7d; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 16:31:14 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87lfhlaa27.fsf@rabkins.net> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16565 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.6.129.124; envelope-from=spacibba@aol.com; helo=sonic309-14.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/07 12:31:17 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254659 Archived-At: On Mon, Sep 07, 2020 at 11:19:44AM -0400, Yoni Rabkin wrote: >Ergus writes: > > >Configuration defaults, configurability, and features are >interchangeable in this discussion. > No, they aren't. New features need to be implemented new defaults is actually something that comes out of the box. > >That's an interesting initial point, but I don't follow the leap you >made since there are no details. You are trying to make a strong point >in comparing a week of failure to an hour of success. But unfortunately >that doesn't explain what needs to be changed. > This was just an example and a personal anecdote to show that some better defaults are possible without too much effort to "attract" fresh blood to emacs. > >Convince to do what? Have they been convinced to move to Emacs as a >development platform going forward? To use Emacs just for the course? To >value software freedom? > As of today people start appreciating free software if they see it is useful. If they go for geany or vim it is also free software, but as emacs developers we should be concerned why if this becomes frequent pattern (that people try and not stay enough to discover the rest). >Conversely, if they used "sublime" (which I assume is an editor) for >that university course, does that mean that they have rejected software >freedom in some way? Does that mean they are now life-long sublime >users? Do they also read their email, browse the web, listen to music, >watch videos, and interface with task-management systems via sublime? > FWIS people come to emacs looking for the basic feature: an editor (with steroids). If that is no as satisfying as they expect (or has disadvantages over gedit, sublime or any other, or require 300 lines of configurations for the basics) then they don't stay enough to discover the rest. >I hope those questions don't come across as badgering. Instead, I'm >trying to point out that the conclusions you've come to aren't implied >by the information you've provided. > >If you've found a way to provide a popular configuration for Emacs for >your university environment, it may make sense to package that and make >it easy to install. After all, the power of Emacs is in what it can >become, as opposed to what it is when you load it. > > Yes, but it doesn't mean that we have to provide the worst possible defaults. > >I would try to argue for a robust and easy way for you to be able to >provide people with the kind of setup for Emacs that you are obviously >enthusiastic about, regardless of how Emacs loads. If you can't do that, >then to my mind Emacs is indeed missing something. > That's the point. Emacs can do so (and much more) but users need to stay enough to discover that, learn the environment and so on. I was just talking about THAT first impression to keep them more than 10 minute and think it worth cross the barrier if the new bindings, no right click for everything and so on. > >I'm unsure of what you mean by that. If those have features that GNU >Emacs doesn't and that you want, then you should port them >over. Unfortunately, I have a feeling we may be talking past each other >on this point. > >-- > "Cut your own wood and it will warm you twice"