From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 17:54:47 +0200 Message-ID: <20200907155447.b675o4idci5dpxxo@Ergus> References: <20200906163418.3p2wuygb4osm76wa@Ergus> <20200906203807.u237c3h22oxwtmba@Ergus> <87tuwabm5a.fsf@gnus.org> <83a6y2nwo1.fsf@gnu.org> <87sgbt939z.fsf@gnus.org> <20200907140332.ixzkgly2o5e7fmmb@Ergus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="4634"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Gregory Heytings Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 07 17:55:55 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kFJUo-00010u-Ig for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 17:55:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41448 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFJUn-0005No-Ii for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 11:55:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:38300) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFJTw-0004uH-PJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 11:55:00 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic313-13.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.133.123]:33732) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFJTt-0002YD-Ae for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 11:54:59 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1599494095; bh=7KMV9o9IWyMt0o7Pf1O2iL2Cfl+ZRk1SEs0zwfUKoNE=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=VV6BhrxxWnG0Bl7Zpc77wjbMmV0IXnvxBtD3X+EYKr/PZZlFEFMXp8kUudcyvODjRUWO/s35ses7bV6s74Ra86NiDNCkF9BZRbE2+ZjBXcHsU4iPHx63JpVDlciSgZLyXivHZWZQ5DCALfuh1CVMB7YoD0UFo2ptbineZxUlkj/ASW21lCeqeumha10Kfd48NTMPgUboUmLhbAA67/hd27mhXP27ZvT2Y2FIK7Vs6Aa2vcTreFtomBEUgLeK0DrNzhvQpMkye7RIZtI7MdLkRoxNdRyuMoZto/anPRXpoLV79AhvHBM6Kz65EtWp/ysrJT9KHEU/RH7Oaa9777KxaQ== X-YMail-OSG: kih1WS0VM1nG9sKwDLnkfDQMINWh4UppHoQ4bZFRql_qzx14iyC4tJHxrL.Fod2 LwzE0mrztLhmdv5VDvP1pwNuQr_3BNBfJ3K0siRaXWU0efZw4eLPOs4hVjMT94Q7kLIIMmGwP5_O TvAIyQTT7bs_z0axW3qX27Dg2.cD2zeodGcRBXEkCkkEpJ5cPWRN9phPFaaJrIwbETHXvysuv41H H9eXiSi4oDToBsB02eH3y8XFYRybPDZLXdkt.SpZFBUS1gsVwirWMEIBMBNcv3Gdxo9Qtj36uDAd JYiPb66XlzywMwtDEhOL49_4A6EUCDVZjbluvnQdXtI1gzZwZRmxZQlFrM_uSNcbhDcvOQbmtVuM 5kKNaexx9X43q6d5_MbAPfKCzby9PxRqBYQZa3HBdynf7j360YuqP8AzAzXAraKzqFe0ld2EeY_W 7TuZri9.l9oBFqK8Bif_HzdNQ5UrfnKwCRDDYSUyhHyhiSFJppBr8Xc6dYBIuRwFYIjctb0rxX7G TXkx5L1CJdS2tEbrRdhKVj4MlIpzDa5cSWlpJBvjIshHnDEk_5HRc6e617u2h8YXYrLmPxb9SLWH mTa4TJMqkxJZ1PaLYRxqB6PzvE6BWGuC6W0QyqOkJvO76Ah84C_cAkkFuxLgCJu1N3z.bigyQlC_ L1XRQV.fuUbYbmgBibadP0ZmZDIW72KtcPXyh6IweyOaDRF4bW2xWumuCjIUIgI7hWhOzhi4nQOU tNp4iqwRa9qtAbqcNQtba_4i5KDFPDDoGHg2ZIEYOcfzfCjE0j0zG9tGgjZ3UABnZGL1xkFV5lUZ RsKSJkafOXp3TJxiSBSZEQ8ak1J7IalU69.czU4lzt Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 15:54:55 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp404.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID f67b9ae57e4831c3c0ca7074f942bfd2; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 15:54:52 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16565 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.6.133.123; envelope-from=spacibba@aol.com; helo=sonic313-13.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/07 11:54:55 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254654 Archived-At: On Mon, Sep 07, 2020 at 03:37:58PM +0000, Gregory Heytings wrote: > >>>>The defaults of emacs are really, really bad. And making the >>>>whole thing like what you get with DOOM Emacs is going to cost >>>>you lots of hours reading documentation and experimenting with >>>>your configuration. >>> >>>That's just wrong. If you want Doom Emacs, you just have to type >>>two commands: >>> >>>git clone --depth 1 https://github.com/hlissner/doom-emacs ~/.emacs.d >>> >>>~/.emacs.d/bin/doom install >>> >>>The first commands takes two seconds to complete, the second one >>>about five minutes (it downloads and compiles about 200 MB of >>>code, fonts, icons, ...). Then you start Emacs, and you're done. >>>That's clearly not "lots of hours". >> >>I think it refers to convert vanilla emacs in a "doomed like" >>experience. >> Sorry, you don't get the point and I don't waste more time on this. > >I don't understand. The two commands above do exactly that. > >Or does "convert vanilla emacs in a "doomed like" experience" means >"without using Doom Emacs, by doing everything by oneself"? In that >case it's not wrong, it is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as if he >had written "it would have taken me more time to develop Emacs by >myself than to develop Visual Studio by myself". > If a software we develop require a complex layer like doom (which could be seen as a big set of patches) to be "attractive" for many users. But also if there are many layer many of them doing the similar changes again and again. Yes our software is missing something. >BTW, I find that many of the defaults of Visual Studio are really bad, >and I'm pretty sure that making the whole thing like what you get with >vanilla Emacs would cost me lots of hours. Can I conclude something >from this? Clearly not. There is not such a thing like the "perfect" default. But we can learn some things from similar newer software around. Sometimes the feeling is that we don't change things not because they are fine, but because we are used to how they are and we reject anything that other editors are doing just because they are not us (the opposite is also an error; trying to do everything the others are doing). Any way there is a sort of consensus about the profiles No more discussion is needed.