From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 16:25:44 +0200 Message-ID: <20200907142544.eeiyojga2bbgkaua@Ergus> References: <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq.ref@Ergus> <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq@Ergus> <83lfhnnew7.fsf@gnu.org> <20200906163418.3p2wuygb4osm76wa@Ergus> <20200906203807.u237c3h22oxwtmba@Ergus> <87wo15adtj.fsf@rabkins.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="6036"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Yoni Rabkin Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 07 16:27:08 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kFI6t-0001Q4-SE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 16:27:07 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33788 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFI6s-0000Sz-Tw for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 10:27:06 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:47088) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFI6E-00085E-9A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 10:26:26 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic314-13.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.132.123]:41828) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFI5i-0006oG-1W for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 10:26:25 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1599488751; bh=fAg/mKFfJjt+kcBwPVpshNcWogTuTFeNDuxKDxFh0wk=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=dv9t9GxeFOSRXdStXBYw/uQMHhELOd81Z+ivihwnzKP8gBJpuQx1qo+gCj8puMXfw1nOnML4gTHHhZQvPAEPTttFrSXm22+PFGGvsIQ4fgSiWyLkPlFzzMf+/mao9X1w3u9d5pxSZ5Zi5iUlrktwzVnhr9z5n+EF1yb9TdvYdv1hmYNth2K6nKxX1NKWqGpnuWpzNIi8toeE3fjf76clcSdMPdTNkhvqgS92pqEs8iDd8XuuHPSgj54ROvpZfHrS39iuQZ+i/QYxppyFJ2xOqvsYg0lOy+fgjWdIn8dHhyTXxT6uOQffHENsA3o2EY0fxSLDt4+MBHsVBAbB34Cmjw== X-YMail-OSG: gFwE3ewVM1kQs7J75wcw6T.HqDB_xUVuOYdLsu0L_zSIrAeM0.cbM2k8fAK.eeh ZJtNI5n6ChfhMLtBjzklwiKZQ098z32fjRDgLCnZxDlOUfoNr5xHKT32g5uPN8y2OzeopHmhy8uJ O9E6rw6dt86LS637lQBE3akH14emjvryK4R7Yy6Am49KHkJZYWXZdHEkUrFdVYxCxJ5U7JPrj_Cn 08.XPGGqACu2k5JEaplv3ZIbALmVqByoU5.SsjMLtpGDTyz7f3qAAordHU0XGNfxAqtyIQ2BwSpc LUMZfSVC964hwpSkX8nbJ0LjF5tSkJXAMGsyJoQSD4dJU0X8WEekgPyUA3XJOs1dZxrCufxO8wTY X0i7KXZGh1wPWH9R.BK89DlkkQMlmgul3_LK6ASi78YUB3U1TZjxpjMIq7lcMbjdQbThnM9tY4SK j20B_5xAusae7t5sCmAeTI49.rVKoeSr_YwuqfGZtjIHAyU_sPkqv_aTc0TMCDTse4uwzt04mdVY 54osPDufJNRIeD_yrszLC8y4t5aYzDPcsU.vOWx9l7UIY104M7lNmZ2XaPTiG8Gw_Qw6ZaW5mQJ4 ICMbImrX_m6gYmsEzk5VCL9jFyrtd0_PGRgm0J1zdCSKWSJ5xj3DEa8hwjddnWFB7LpuF6Obr1w7 qIac9qyeYm9fHuNo.Y6zpWRy63vR1_l4I8mSNGiyzeeJ0J7zWkfCblHoU5fZDGfqyfgPc9GmNdOW 0sks1kV_u_fs3t7KJ4qR9O.Yd.ltPelXBaeAbxIZr3ZUsYJfC9Dix3_ILnH_6.E2mY92SEuFZDo5 ems4M9_R23DE5MTxrLywfqn5cWgwrI1uq1N189cMxD Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic314.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 14:25:51 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp410.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID abe7a7906efa2b68156ed2c2519c327d; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 14:25:48 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87wo15adtj.fsf@rabkins.net> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16565 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.6.132.123; envelope-from=spacibba@aol.com; helo=sonic314-13.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/07 10:25:51 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254644 Archived-At: On Mon, Sep 07, 2020 at 09:58:32AM -0400, Yoni Rabkin wrote: > >Ergus writes: > >> I am NOT telling we should do all this, but this is what a young user >> expects because all these is more or less standard everywhere else. > >I appreciate you enthusiasm for making Emacs popular. Thank you for >that. > >However, it is always jarring to me to see free software developers >arguing over features none of them like or want, and instead trying to >"prove" to the other that a hypothetical third person would really like >those features. This supposed "young user" is a pretend person; they >don't exist. People ascribe whatever properties they want to the poor >hypothetical "young user" and then argue that those properties require a >change in Emacs. I disagree with this approach because I think that real >people and their preferences are more complicated and subtle than any >person we can make up as a tool to back an argument. > The post actually started not for adding new features, but just to change some of our defaults. Actually one thing I don't like about doom or spacemacs is the excessive complexity they add and long configuration sets. When I recommend Emacs to any of my students; after a week trying it they finally go for VSCode or sublime and they get the work done in an hour. Actually I have this config I share with them with only vanilla features: https://github.com/Ergus/mini_dotemacs And so far I could convince at least some of them this year. >If you want these features yourself then you should add them (I don't >mean that in a sarcastic way at all). Your enthusiasm for creating and >maintaining these features will appeal to others who want similar >features. We all know and love this way of development in the free >software development world. This way assures that at least one real >person's needs are being met. > Again, are not features the "issue", but some "bad" defaults. If there come out specific features I will try (as I am doing actually with vertical-icomplete or highlight-completions). The question to the developers was about defaults we would be willing to change and which are whiten in stone. >If you don't want these features yourself and nobody else in the project >wants them either, the only way I can think of making a compelling >argument for people to develop those feature is to ask real people and >get real responses. I am fairly confident that if you had a testimony or >user-test from actual people stating that a feature is missing, then >people here would help develop that feature. > Actually as mentioned before, the existence of doom emacs, spacemacs and all the other configs (some of them more popular than vanilla these days) is a proof. >I develop Emacs extensions (Emms, rt-liberation in GNU ELPA, and others >outside of it). I never try to guess what a hypothetical person wants >from Emms, but I do actively solicit requests and suggestions from >anyone I can, and when someone cares enough to ask for a feature, I do >everything I can to add it. Indeed, Emms has several extensions and >modes that I never use and can't even wrap my head around why people >like. But real people asked for them, so they are there. > I am adding changes to completions and icomplete while I use ivy. >-- > "Cut your own wood and it will warm you twice"