From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 14:45:52 +0200 Message-ID: <20200907124552.GA30099@tuxteam.de> References: <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq.ref@Ergus> <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq@Ergus> <83lfhnnew7.fsf@gnu.org> <20200906163418.3p2wuygb4osm76wa@Ergus> <20200906203807.u237c3h22oxwtmba@Ergus> <87tuwabm5a.fsf@gnus.org> <83a6y2nwo1.fsf@gnu.org> <87sgbt939z.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="oyUTqETQ0mS9luUI" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3671"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 07 14:46:56 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kFGXv-0000sA-Su for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 14:46:55 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41494 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFGXu-0004ah-U4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 08:46:54 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52722) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFGXF-0003k7-7K for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 08:46:13 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:49224) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFGXC-0003PK-PN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 08:46:12 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:To:Date; bh=Oen4lwOLspqjxQiQ7JpMkdgRjvCT+JjW7H/T8Ovy8sY=; b=Bo/OaLgUCEma+H7fIqt7zbLCHeq2LJoRGHFwOWQCYJMZ1VEtKK7qumPLRJii2ieUcRNADMens2HBL5SaIMOEn6VLT5YtmR39nb9e//bSiROvWJMliztvPYuZByQfNvX4Fmvx6YFCcx+b5qFggIzSAXkIINHroReWKiSiYPOpHIeSeF7TJpOjJyCq/Ter36FzhlRWlYNqO5dRnCzm0DYVEggUsmk7tqZANwh1i/+MHha+wplJ0arHXSLPhXQ4FDQ0vdEn2sjG+ZL29OIWROIyqpC8ACNKFx0SSFozjuHjjwKDwb/Kkngtd4HlVuvI2oyvDqjr2V7YM6EPPVPukcuzDQ==; Original-Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kFGWz-00008p-Ds for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 14:45:57 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87sgbt939z.fsf@gnus.org> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=5.199.139.25; envelope-from=tomas@tuxteam.de; helo=mail.tuxteam.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/07 08:46:02 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254630 Archived-At: --oyUTqETQ0mS9luUI Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Sep 07, 2020 at 02:31:36PM +0200, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote: > This just showed up in my feed: >=20 > https://phaazon.net/blog/editors-in-2020 >=20 > It's kinda interesting -- they go through a bunch of editors and list > what works/doesn't work for them. Key quote: >=20 > * The defaults of emacs are really, really bad. And making the whole thin= g like > what you get with DOOM Emacs is going to cost you lots of hours reading > documentation and experimenting with your configuration. I enjoyed doing= it but > in the end=E2=80=A6 why simply not ship emacs with those defaults? Is it= due to > historical reasons that no one cares about anymore nowadays? /stares at = vim This is, of course, Dimitri Sabadie's take on it. It's an interesting read, and one can learn a lot about it. Still I spot this horrible anti-pattern ("my opinion matters, others don't exist", cf the above: "Is it due to historical reasons that no one cares about anymore nowadays?" -- has Dimitri ever talked to someone who might "care nowadays" or does he postulate his POV to be the only one?). Same goes for those terms subtly transporting a judgment like "modern". They don't go well with those people implicitly being relegated to=20 "not existent" or "old". I'd like to see some integrative efforts on part of those proposing changes -- more akin to "what can be done to cater to all?" instead of "let's change the defaults to look more like VSCode!". Discussing the defaults one by one (as proposed by Eli) might be one good step in that direction. After all, we don't gain anything by attracting two VSCoders and kicking out five old-timers here. Cheers - t --oyUTqETQ0mS9luUI Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAl9WK4AACgkQBcgs9XrR2kbBsACfbsBaQBcrAPeEepUXjU79LvyH TcAAn3BXF71nUuDmuZ4BiHZpH+70Anr+ =s+aa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --oyUTqETQ0mS9luUI--