From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 12:11:32 +0200 Message-ID: <20200907101132.a2wmjm6v4twe5554@Ergus> References: <20200907093148.c5tbr4safb7fjeyu@E15-2016.optimum.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="37236"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emacs-Devel List To: Boruch Baum Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 07 12:12:20 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kFE8K-0009ZX-8C for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 12:12:20 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46978 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFE8J-00063e-BI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 06:12:19 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:46182) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFE7l-0005Tv-6o for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 06:11:45 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic313-13.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.133.123]:42036) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFE7i-0000oq-Du for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 06:11:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1599473500; bh=FXBRhTZrj2Ww2BXKRMv47BVHNY+pwnCemljpcrMFA2w=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=pb7Ltd8sixi9yxGTSX3TbIsY2mfysFxVoMt6QcETN5e240I0ijQN2BTAHNn2dJHbCVCoCjLbfe+Dn1tfRmG4THY4TPwO5E7T4HjFRJGQruYZ2B0QwwRIkalc2eaR8jP7ZuFdcVVSOdzjVJhs8b5hUbV8YXxYvzzgWAoNekuShrWtrUiB3H9NrptF1b8WIOIINy/6kXCz1ZVM5xcPxKAt9zb6VjGFP5R4T2twrZI779oIBF8EcIZaMtUlgbTViZRzfG1SqUzotibnUnHus4CwNzxBwl4XBewV1SEQUMiWPjPp2UnOv9KnvupHkTbwb7TUjTgojbUoj4JhSdVuEs3QLg== X-YMail-OSG: mZO.5ZMVM1kl0yzHJcDSkaYfWoYf5l.JXM0LkQXx9DEH40Nvzd3uAQKg9FWboql Wnku9X0dUrvHvqrsJEiLhwcBsLWfCgtrdQKn2nTLGPub0aXq7Dzn5YHgwpuZaP_6NDRXYce9rf.H sR734khbf6FAxfxRZSgC4O0YfrTSTrBJk4CQT7449Kr4mCQuKY2EsNAhJwhi7i7s1Bi6VpgSe8kp Q_oO_fsRRG2PB0hTtdFT5Ehg1SlCV_Uw9Vwo2dInjxLPNNkpxppGM6MgJYoymEUo1AoOtc4ojxkq oe6xJQ_DMUtmNX9GbbxiV6MU4DeqFxLImmA0P4VsuXAfH28WpKS3smKSVdY_EXYlK3GKd3F7HWTw nVkn.X00O9MY9mkKVee.S18VYPsrMHoUerkcg2p1nyi4SBYGTigUTiSj6_a6yYLoTXFgwoefSftQ FfK7lkekJTL24fP6FR4GkzdeivcCx1QCZYNSrzmy6CMsXaAR55gMuRS4cOsnAs7W5Gh1DjkUlG0g rziVaWpfaU.tbG8amP9JfCNm9KiCBjQCG.u6vo8kif8AxeXcNq2eENuKA97JaUBboihl3qWd_5Vk yG5R73A9qeqB2FCQRnEMLaQCrnmZRSLldwsr5TDMJpyRx7N_F7Xn1mIDyKkEu26e2yCCzMBY8gv0 ez0u4K5FSvD.g9kXviiHX8bI1bBQsMBwAj8a0v6mLGoK76kbhY3TmNg8um19vD1KGBeXPIMUhVIb _RnoJvComCq6_VSML6Gj9drlqSvwk8Iyjv8uCgYCknCu1fjqFGWWbqm7fuBPlJfOyxDQM820ew1f Wa7ONRQHbqYGyP3yVXfOaRigApzrxq0AJex9oo51W1 Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 7 Sep 2020 10:11:40 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp406.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 10c80c84055cab847ecfe8846f4ee577; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 10:11:36 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200907093148.c5tbr4safb7fjeyu@E15-2016.optimum.net> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16565 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.6.133.123; envelope-from=spacibba@aol.com; helo=sonic313-13.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/07 06:11:40 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254621 Archived-At: Hi: My point actually goes in the opposite direction. I don't want to add an extra layer of abstraction, a fork, a new distribution (starter kit), external dependencies to do things that vanilla emacs is totally capable to do with probably less than 100 lines of configuration... but hidden in our old syntax/names/bindings, unfamiliar lisp, and long and sometimes too technical documentation. The idea is to bring what we already have in vanilla but disabled, no long starting times, extra hacks/functions or complex things to attract new users coming from VSCode, Sublime or Atom. On Mon, Sep 07, 2020 at 05:31:48AM -0400, Boruch Baum wrote: > On Mon, 7 Sep 2020 00:20:08 +0200, Ergus wrote: > >> There will be never an agreement about changing defaults with long >> ... >> So what if: >> ... >> Does this makes sense? > >Debian (and possibly other downstream projects) liberally change >defaults and add packages to their default version of emacs, so your >idea might meet a more enthusiastic reception somewhere in some >downstream project that caters more specifically to the user-base to >which your proposal is aimed. > I thing that we should a attract a little bit of everything; not only lisp hacker. In my personal experience the Starter_Kits do too much and increases the configuration complexity much more than the benefit they bring. Specially because of the external dependencies and trick to group them while supporting different emacs versions. >In the case of Debian, that project may have already started moving in >the *opposite* direction; they culled many small debian-specific tweaks, >and removed packages from their 'vanilla' default version of emacs. On >the other hand, they've increased and somewhat standardized native >package-manager support for many third-party packages that most users >get MELPA or other third-parties. > I actually never understood why Debian adds melpa-elpa packages to their repos as their update sycle is veeeery slow... but this is another discussion. >Communicating with people at the following links might help advance your >proposal: > > https://github.com/bbatsov/prelude > > http://wikemacs.org/wiki/Starter_Kits > Actually no, because they support (as I said) add too many complexities layers, external dependencies and custom configuration sets with personalized packages (like spacemacs layers) while modifying completely the emacs bindings and sometimes breaking the integration with internal emacs features like package-list. I want to bring the best we can with what we have but with the simplest possible configuration and only with internal features. Beautiful is better than ugly. Explicit is better than implicit. Simple is better than complex. > >-- >hkp://keys.gnupg.net >CA45 09B5 5351 7C11 A9D1 7286 0036 9E45 1595 8BC0 >