From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2020 09:37:13 +0200 Message-ID: <20200907073713.GA20443@tuxteam.de> References: <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq.ref@Ergus> <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq@Ergus> <20200906222008.qtpxy65f3updclgh@Ergus> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="GvXjxJ+pjyke8COw" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35167"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 07 09:38:00 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kFBix-00092i-9H for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 09:37:59 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39102 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFBiw-0001OF-9a for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 03:37:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52462) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFBiU-0000zA-1y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 03:37:30 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:48590) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kFBiR-0003Gx-Ea for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 03:37:29 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=From:In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:To:Date; bh=ZsXsvs7gJaHXMZ4N/+QjfWBmN73YioD9R5C0+TqSmvQ=; b=Qn4fsTXvE8g5SISDrHT7svxMIREXVopknenEz5vnYDgk9PAM/9MvXlCw9NgY5D0C/8Eg3egs+7RjTr9TmDBjKVd7rOD1Vm8PcMVBp9OlgTUEoaMZkNZKDPXjgAzpp88V9NgpT9Donlf0VbYIoNultKftwxkmywi7X3r/tkIVmYNSwB87o5/GHvZEIj4ZrcfK9NzPsfM1K68vQb3HdC6r0UlGvqI+HkH2gFYBZ7/rRg+OAJ46aUneMZMAb9MPnPADAmwuSjDQQtzjhYM7Wl5ul+XY8ZVf0CFnGKT0cUGA0ur4pcyMPj7YIcX8WfVdIv4y8CVX/6ZhDFy7nlV1zeJFyA==; Original-Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1kFBiI-0005e8-RL for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2020 09:37:18 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20200906222008.qtpxy65f3updclgh@Ergus> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=5.199.139.25; envelope-from=tomas@tuxteam.de; helo=mail.tuxteam.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/07 03:37:25 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254614 Archived-At: --GvXjxJ+pjyke8COw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline On Mon, Sep 07, 2020 at 12:20:08AM +0200, Ergus wrote: > There will be never an agreement about changing defaults with long > standing users. So we use your preferences? >(I can't understand the strong feeling about that > because some/most of the choices we have today were actually determined > by historic/technological conditions more than user preferences) And yours are better than other's ;-P Sorry for being a bit sarcastic. It's not with the intention to hurt: I know you're well-intentioned, but if you think about it, discussions about defaults are bound to end like this, at least in a community as diverse as Emacs's is (show me another piece of software which is (a) user-oriented and (b) alive for over 30 years). There are several reactions to this (recurring) "Hey, let's change the world, because, you know, Emacs is Old (TM)". You now have seen a couple of them. Most old folks who are happy with how things work now just sigh and say "well, as long as I can disable it -- go ahead". This, of course, ignores that there's a price to pay: fragmented experience. Of course, with a highly customizable thing as Emacs is, there'll always be some of that, but it costs something (like asking for help on copy-paste and getting blank stares, or being told to do C-v (is this on Apple/Microsoft-themed Ergus-Emacs, where it means "paste", or in "Classic", where it means "scroll down"?. It's clear that one has to pay part of that price. But how much? That can only be found by trying to find a consensus, since it is a collective price to pay. So please: as important as those ideas are, consider those points: 1. there are people perfectly happy with the current defaults. And they are happy for a reason -- sometimes for a *good* reason. Just assumeng that they are "resistant to change" can feel insulting. 2. "anyone can coustomize its own Platonic cave" is a solution just up to a certain point. Finding this equilibrium (which tends to shift over time) is something a long-lived project has to do (and is doing) anyway all of the time. So your best way forward is, as someone else (I think it was Eli) proposed in this thread is to discuss each potential default change separately. Alternatively, you could offer your new "world vision" as an ELPA package for people to try out: no need to wait for the next version. Then, as a more radical approach, you might try to fork Emacs. This sounds harsh, but a friendly fork can be enriching, too. Cheers -- t --GvXjxJ+pjyke8COw Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAl9V4ykACgkQBcgs9XrR2kakvACeI9PyLFD5ItjMD96UyLbzxNnM Qr4Anic1y270ANCNTtPymY0MYPiMXebx =/4cI -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --GvXjxJ+pjyke8COw--