From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes for emacs 28 Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 18:34:18 +0200 Message-ID: <20200906163418.3p2wuygb4osm76wa@Ergus> References: <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq.ref@Ergus> <20200906133719.cu6yaldvenxubcqq@Ergus> <83lfhnnew7.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="20738"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 06 18:35:06 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1kExdC-0005I8-2k for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 18:35:06 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52442 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kExdB-00015e-50 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 12:35:05 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:44370) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kExcb-0000dt-2y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 12:34:29 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic313-13.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com ([74.6.133.123]:39133) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1kExcZ-0000b1-1F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 12:34:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1599410064; bh=7c7Ilmfrt7finkAOYrvD1++O/j/QuHehORSV4GY+iqM=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=TDAFEewKn7yWwZ6SNBn31kHV8ryjql6bIzCRPsrNPcUr6t+AsluoNVgZUfHRUr+vYRAYsQ/xHEDxOBR+aw5plKb2M6VcvXDLZ50T4Y6jsJey7SmaMqKNVWsow2mDbIF0mMF6YLgc49kMoEIw/jjTNYgjt6a5YoLCWysyEn1R862JVeqpDHlhV87OqJzZmXGYshFsnjleqMdydjjaSpipZuDEapaDKscFVLYBKZ1rpnD0hgkrLIjrspQDO9BRp9XFIUZ9lZQByeavVlVUhEFHdx8ndyjWvYSX6oo0x2K+Pj1s7IqBscXL/y1d3LFraekB77x3rgF9Zoqt81Hw2T0iUA== X-YMail-OSG: l6E3ciAVM1nhPCX9.VQwEWdHDOu3OGO.fQPPyWdWscfb8NUUQuhpxK2sn4vXYwR PCswPEbYrSEMbOFeshjwV3onmwYwEDY92pFIN2UWw4nIxRnzHFYqImcpurziXHU5pmowjXfrGHcI _EAX33x5YAQsuxKLNXWzh1GsQCqERTQS5Ks1BXkMk4NeoA09JTURshTmiN4h.39mpd7qEKKyHXOo EalHvcipfcRmGd0sbnMeeovbPMH_4R2ybBYcoU8eYylxaUKCUs3Bi.KYsuDDAXBX3HEPj4erx69m FTcOidIu0ncsaORRxhJc0bHXcYC6hhztuVwcGaX6dUEggI_XLKcRO4TjQI7VjJ8ZZLLwbls003.O ogMqkktF6dNUoDDBywjjpIWadnnYifW7AuMSZ6iZHqz2Mv0XII33SWlb8gV8eyyo7GGeM4jEqdqq iKNZQakofMAzAS64Zp3gYRLPxsV0PIWauhtIFrMSzYkUQmUQBXIhF4gDr0iMJJHnCWj3419j2Q56 XjFCiGuwhwsUrop2yLCEQCmiKlPTR6umsb7rWld_ZNm57UIDcrH797Om9j06pRF8RbFSedO9DONL kAdVjuydyTeoC0Q3lj6sJY3NLUcsoJPH3kT2uh.xSaZ8rk1b.NhrfboDLJgOptYYIj6AbwHdrIEz 5sxjJ9UDaZQhGJlK31phiA4oFeI7UqILAX8wOgGWWf1jewli5CfIlxXK8Ztj8gFD12vlyNx1.2Te 2jjrXZ7dvOY0CCm7Oa3hooP7dfaJVT8xW5ElBAC4PtzC4cLo_sA2HF6c1Ps34_KDYJGAALmZ.FCZ pFLW3P3ml1UCzaPAoh4DLglNHqNBz75Z7OV7Zda3Wu Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic313.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 6 Sep 2020 16:34:24 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp417.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 5e794b943f707a4a5efdccd83d02485a; Sun, 06 Sep 2020 16:34:21 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83lfhnnew7.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.16565 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.aol Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.7) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=74.6.133.123; envelope-from=spacibba@aol.com; helo=sonic313-13.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/09/06 12:34:24 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.11 and newer [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:254570 Archived-At: On Sun, Sep 06, 2020 at 05:44:40PM +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> Date: Sun, 6 Sep 2020 15:37:19 +0200 >> From: Ergus >> >> As 27 has just been released I think it is time to start considering >> changes for the release 28. > >We don't normally "consider changes for the next release", we just >wait until there're enough new features and/or enough time since the >previous major release, and go with what we have at that point. Since >we are not a company with hierarchy and management, we have no real >way of telling someone what to do and when. > >So I suggest a separate discussion for each feature/change you'd like >to see happening. Then whatever decision we will make about each one, >will be in Emacs 28. > >Thanks. Hi Eli: I just mentioned some default changes that will not require almost any extra implementation and functionalities that have already been there for many years. I am just thinking in the first impression for new users... The reaction has been as expected but I needed to mention them just to see which ones could or couldn't be at least considered. So I don't waste time with the others. Sorry but I can't understand why "old" users, that can write lisp lines easily to their configs, can't understand that for new users (and younger ones) those lines sometimes takes hours or days (mainly because they don't know what/where/how to look for, and lisp is not so popular or familiar these days). And that the first impression when they open emacs is like going back to 1998. I know that ideally the users should read the documentation, learn lisp, pass the tutorial and so on... but in real live if the first impression is not good we just scare away them before they discover the power of emacs. Mainly because there are many alternatives easier to start with. It is just my opinion. I won't insist on this anymore. Best, Ergus.