From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: tomas@tuxteam.de Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: master 1e3b0f2: Improve doc strings of project.el Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 17:27:02 +0200 Message-ID: <20200717152702.GA18658@tuxteam.de> References: <83a704okmg.fsf@gnu.org> <5d59dd9b-0848-691a-615e-c16d2070b92d@yandex.ru> <837dv8oida.fsf@gnu.org> <834kqcoghk.fsf@gnu.org> <99bb8976-580a-ef8e-6b7d-130c3ca5cb8a@yandex.ru> <83y2nom3hy.fsf@gnu.org> <20200713075842.GA4332@tuxteam.de> <21b47cbb-d1aa-d875-2944-deebb7583961@yandex.ru> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="M9NhX3UHpAaciwkO" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="15774"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 17 17:28:14 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jwSHV-0003xl-Tz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 17:28:13 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60442 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jwSHU-0004No-UM for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:28:12 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:39718) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jwSGR-00033G-Ed for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:27:08 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.tuxteam.de ([5.199.139.25]:38932) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:DHE_RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jwSGO-0006E8-Eg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 11:27:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=tuxteam.de; s=mail; h=In-Reply-To:Content-Type:MIME-Version:References:Message-ID:Subject:Cc:To:From:Date; bh=O34oOpPMLednGNhfuupWGhI+JH9ZBITwY5xfrdtiZZ0=; b=ghzpqNnOMCFv/zI51A8pbBOM6UQWwREqiGR/q8gpUWiBngAMb3WIA4llllXrJ+8MmADfSt+9YFDKu9VEE6p857UJolv7ji/mCYgg2KMYTNFL6grei0F8k+ApUkryRa9bdA63H0K/DSpj0BBZMjzjNr6ltugJYlWW7gGei02HT0/e3wkF2mILcnDm+BUV9z/pFMcAMDo49WVjv/M66k9hUQht5oMEcFOjEm3j729+HMdA46rP1Bnl0mQTG8Qxz3XnSaNuQsXIPau/qZ2fSxoOYc7UWiANEYTCJPcBQpy5/kccg5JClVxzSv1CTvydc1f8PMo9XF4B7FMqkgnPadF3EQ==; Original-Received: from tomas by mail.tuxteam.de with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1jwSGM-00050U-9E; Fri, 17 Jul 2020 17:27:02 +0200 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <21b47cbb-d1aa-d875-2944-deebb7583961@yandex.ru> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=5.199.139.25; envelope-from=tomas@tuxteam.de; helo=mail.tuxteam.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/07/17 11:27:02 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = Linux 3.1-3.10 [fuzzy] X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:253031 Archived-At: --M9NhX3UHpAaciwkO Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 01:27:11PM +0300, Dmitry Gutov wrote: > On 13.07.2020 10:58, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote: > >Even the term "API", "application programming interface" conveys > >the culture on the one side: here be the system programmers (better > >paid, presumably), there be the application programmers. If one of > >the latter*dares* to touch system things, (s)he's fired [1]. >=20 > This is is pretty dated view: the "system things" are rarely in the > picture. But they are as fine to touch as any, as long as that fits > the abstraction you are defining. I was rather trying to highlight the contrast between (a) the library designer(s) set the interface design and (b) the interface evolves as a collective effort of designers and users. Reality will be a mix of both, of course. The term API conveys a hierarchy -- clearly in camp (a). The "system programmer" thing comes from former times, yes. > The difference between system programmers and application > programmers, I think, is the latter have found that abstractions are > a good thing for a lot of domains, and have come up with certain > rules for using them. >=20 > I can certainly understand how a system programmer might dislike > having to deal with extra abstractions, but, again, certain jobs > simply call for using them. I think we misunderstood each other. Abstractions are our daily bread, of course. But the process of choosing which abstractions are relevant and whether and where to punch holes in them is open to debate. Here we seem to have a conflict between your and Eli's views. I sincerely hope you both don't take that to the personal level and try to work out that conflict. Cheers -- tom=C3=A1s --M9NhX3UHpAaciwkO Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Digital signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAl8Rw0YACgkQBcgs9XrR2kY4+gCfcjJ+Ya9j7K5AUfFLbG4Dcgv0 5o0An0G8AQetzj2nOwGWmA8JmoLEZkcY =5ZUG -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --M9NhX3UHpAaciwkO--