From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode Date: Sun, 26 Apr 2020 17:22:06 +0000 Message-ID: <20200426172206.GC18629@ACM> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="24829"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Emacs developers To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 26 19:22:57 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jSkzZ-0006NY-53 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 26 Apr 2020 19:22:57 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:39460 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jSkzY-0001Fl-5p for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 26 Apr 2020 13:22:56 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:57458) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jSkyq-0000P8-4I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Apr 2020 13:22:12 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jSkyo-0001Md-RW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Apr 2020 13:22:11 -0400 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:10290 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jSkyo-0001KN-6F for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Apr 2020 13:22:10 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 38234 invoked by uid 3782); 26 Apr 2020 17:22:07 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p4FE15195.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.225.81.149]) by localhost.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Sun, 26 Apr 2020 19:22:06 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 12817 invoked by uid 1000); 26 Apr 2020 17:22:06 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de Received-SPF: pass client-ip=193.149.48.1; envelope-from=acm@muc.de; helo=mail.muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: First seen = 2020/04/26 13:22:07 X-ACL-Warn: Detected OS = FreeBSD 9.x or newer [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:247851 Archived-At: Hello, Stefan. On Sun, Apr 26, 2020 at 17:43:55 +0200, Stefan Kangas wrote: > In Bug#40813, I suggest the following: > * CONTRIBUTE: > * etc/CALC-NEWS: > * etc/DEBUG: > * etc/MACHINES: > * etc/PROBLEMS: > * etc/TODO: Use org-mode instead of outline-mode. > The reason is that I believe our users are more familiar with org-mode > than outline-mode, and that I simply think the interface is better. > It's the forward-looking, "modern" choice, if you like. > This was not met with undivided enthusiasm, and the suggestion was to > bring the discussion here. > Here's my attempt to summarize the counter-arguments: > (1) Outline-mode is in fact more well-known than org-mode. > (2) Org-mode increases memory consumption (by 1-3 MB). > (3) We could improve outline-mode by adding something like org-cycle (TAB). > (4) There's a slight delay when opening an org file for the first time > in a session. You fail to represent my objection, here. Let me restate it. org-mode is a sledgehammer and the six outline-mode files are mere nuts. The org-mode source files are 100 times as big as outline.el. You do not have to "know" outline-mode to use it. I certainly don't. It is merely text-mode adorned with a few non-essential commands for navigating via the outlines. Anybody who can use Emacs at all can use outline-mode. By contrast, org-mode is a monster. The learning time for org-mode must be non-trivial. If we switch these files to org-mode, org mode gurus will fill them up with obscure org-mode constructs leaving everybody else unable to work on these files without leaning org-mode. In my case I will have to relearn it each time I use it (since I will not be using it enough to remember it). I would emphasise here that I don't know org-mode at all. I would strongly object to being forced to learn it, merely to continue actively contributing to Emacs. > I would say that (1) is hard to prove or disprove, and I have only > anecdotal evidence here. Regarding (2), this is true but I disagree > that it's significant enough to worry about in this day and age. It's > hard to argue against (3) but it needs an interested party to do it. > Finally, I don't know if anything can be done about (4). > So please make it known how you feel about this proposal. > Best regards, > Stefan Kangas -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).