From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs project mission (was Re: "If you're still seeing problems, please reopen.") Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2019 02:08:55 +0000 Message-ID: <20191122020855.GA4085@ACM> References: <874kz0pa9y.fsf@gnus.org> <87sgmjyn60.fsf@gmx.de> <87imnezyt5.fsf@gmx.de> <835zjdz58t.fsf@gnu.org> <20191121175927.GA4836@ACM> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="256560"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" User-Agent: Mutt/1.10.1 (2018-07-13) To: Eli Zaretskii , rms@gnu.org, dgutov@yandex.ru, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Nov 22 03:09:12 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iXyNk-0014dM-7X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 03:09:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46944 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iXyNj-0002IN-3Z for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 21:09:11 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:48662) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iXyNc-0002IF-1D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 21:09:05 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iXyNa-0006JS-1j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 21:09:03 -0500 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:43800 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iXyNZ-0006Iy-Ow for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 21 Nov 2019 21:09:01 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail 80049 invoked by uid 3782); 22 Nov 2019 02:09:00 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p4FE1579D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [79.225.87.157]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 22 Nov 2019 03:08:55 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 4100 invoked by uid 1000); 22 Nov 2019 02:08:55 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 9.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 193.149.48.1 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:242598 Archived-At: Hello, John. On Thu, Nov 21, 2019 at 14:32:50 -0700, John Wiegley wrote: > >>>>> "AM" == Alan Mackenzie writes: > AM> Their way of making money is by immorally, surreptitiously, and in many > AM> cases illegally collecting their users' personal data and selling it on. > One thing the free software movement should strengthen is selling users on the > merits of its ideals, and not try to distinguish itself by painting the other > side in such a lopsidedly evil light. You're suggesting that my sentence above is unfair and lopsided. It was intented to be accurate and fair, and I believe it is, as much as it can be in a single short summary sentence. > I know many people who work at Apple; I know family who work at Apple. All of > my own hardware is from Apple. Yet they do not, as the above sentence might > suggest, gather together in dark rooms to render kitten fat over bubbling > cauldrons. If that sounds hyperbolic, it gives you some idea of how statements > like the above come across to someone who is sympathetic both to users (who of > course desire complete freedom) and corporations (who desire to stay in > business, and are beholden to more entities than just their users). I don't see what the above paragraph has to do with my sentence that you quoted. I purposely didn't include Apple in my "companies like that". As you note, Apple has other flaws. You seem to be denigrating what I said by a straw man argument. My point was that we should not encourage our users to submit to the abuses of Google, Facebook et al. by facilitating the access to our services to those who do so. That would indeed be endorsement of them. > Could large companies do better? Of course they could. The Free Software > Foundation might even be the one to show them the path to a better way. But > vilifying the opposition does not make your case in the eyes of those who > don't already agree with you. What I said is quoted above. I believe it is literally true, fair, and highly pertinent. Sometimes, one must call a spade a spade, and draw a line. If I am mistaken, please say so and point out how, rather than attacking me with straw man arguments. > -- > John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F > http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).