From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Why fido, icycles, ido, icomplete Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2019 23:27:40 +0100 Message-ID: <20191106222740.kz6wqmyoaile25te@Ergus> References: <20191106212018.cnddqzlo5rpdhi6s.ref@Ergus> <20191106212018.cnddqzlo5rpdhi6s@Ergus> <62749f7e-818f-90c8-2792-933aa0de996a@grinta.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="48187"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Daniele Nicolodi Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Nov 06 23:29:46 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1iSToA-000CR2-36 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 23:29:46 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35748 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iSTo8-0002LC-Hu for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 17:29:44 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:33755) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iSTmV-0002KE-61 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 17:28:04 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iSTmR-0007NK-GZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 17:28:01 -0500 Original-Received: from sonic308-9.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com ([66.163.187.32]:41715) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iSTmR-0007M1-4O for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 17:27:59 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1573079277; bh=O5IHo6pbReQ/3t+yQIxq3O/AoLNAam/3QEWb9HjpDGE=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=pPPGtzj6SESW71ZzZrLnt7LfbW76V2ILkUAxgdMuQ5+5Tfp13uzTkbBOlPqJxSFtvMO6fcRFiPcL5JTxNHUKscPVNhJZJ2Ekf4W7jIJ8ZHTAMlVvFpfqburI/l4fmVLfqO90meM9jMhpDLsErQt5pBSPaLDzjKz6JEQ3phkdynj10Q42TV+KdYcOcFw0On6sQoq9VJhSBD+zroK+qBeVsDOOr5FaUz3nbinWQFu0u6HNnBkXS8WGfCvKYDs6WJWVDAaUrjFPs6tpHGWhazvJ8SH2NEgNBFnaZRJyRMxO6TYFmukmo55DDrPxYAdXomtLHUJ2Af/tJ/oxW5x7n7kTBg== X-YMail-OSG: UZEfHBAVM1le0lqntsS54_8mJLsdDFiabjudyDo7chhEGuxXoiHMnKl5tKMzz2y bnltvqkvVLf61nx.WI7bjUKSTfCCzthum1ZampiT.YFSi8chzql2PdndwOKADCKZtg4.Xbm8k1ka lwQwvHz7xBTWruAy5JkmtomPBbVkoSKa7QnZad3I5HTNBgxgUAcrTgCJiXL0EYaT_WF3rKMM4qJE OhnXZdRdIZ8Ny938gpG.WIT7iaSHafyHelrPWSFj6ju1oLWnVlZXLW7kqtzLGIAOgBsBR3sLdTrx Woq5inCBDhar6iI7wx1SdjVSopAWibkitRh2yamzzmqqQKFTQs6zb3jUmqnVlQczOnSDjSekcxK9 iS2Rbzmu4Bb9pXVJFcCgWETBxHYkgStH5_yFVo9AZgeIcsC9KA0ZybRlnqoi3qysY0gR9yy5tLIe 5sUne4Y38OUMHRUL5GZmGoZkwdNNwUCsbnRiRraNCJoGCHPcbVw1qK7P8HzreGY.SVE1sn_h4X2h z7x.K_slVMhU2wavfVx1Yq_utj.KgnG2JUAbq3PB7HYDsJFU6ci6w5b3lE1OamhvMMJiHE.LmTef bfHNNAEuaQ1U0iqBiBHQD0TAhja8rIV7Wc.GMH42bJukZmv7hrd.0hnLIKXtLhy4iFscUdFchEUx NP57hi0Vfu5jWqG_89zvC0D1Z.J_dgq9oGrXZ5nv4t0nH9KLYgOfEh9b6mNustzFm_Z_fKlviuLN XdIHOwqSRZGCrPxOr_BHW74S6g_iSJcYmn8qFFWCYdPJohKVSdRez5A2UUf5TZn5yQG8g5dsplsA 5MrhnFqGN4otMp35ctccxVx6f6nR916zzajOuzB0B_ Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic308.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 6 Nov 2019 22:27:57 +0000 Original-Received: by smtp416.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 176b0de4d42752a49efd14a74b48b88c; Wed, 06 Nov 2019 22:27:54 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <62749f7e-818f-90c8-2792-933aa0de996a@grinta.net> X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.14680 hermes Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/1.8.0_181) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 66.163.187.32 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:241881 Archived-At: On Wed, Nov 06, 2019 at 02:30:31PM -0700, Daniele Nicolodi wrote: >Hello Ergus, > >On 06-11-2019 14:20, Ergus wrote: >> 90% of the emacs users are actually using ivy or helm... >how do you come to this estimate? I don't think it is something you can >derive solely from download statistics. > >Thank you. > >Cheers, >Daniele > Hi Daniele: When I started using emacs I was very confused about what to use for completion, so I checked: download statistics and github starts (now there is the package "paradox" to get that information in the package manager). But also the community size of spacemacs (with 188000 starts and 4600 forks) compared to vanilla emacs and a Spanish telegram group for emacs (197 members now) and a reddit thread related (I can't find it now). I actually told 90% to be conservative; because 100% of the comments I have seen related to completion use helm or ivy exclusively. The few people I knew were using ido 3 years ago (due to the performance issues in helm) have moved to ivy now. On the other hand, in my work there is a user who use emacs without any config at all (because it is in a common server), so as I suppose there are other people in the same situation I keep that 10% for them. But I don't think he will be annoyed by an improvement like setting a better completion by default. In any case the key of my mail was more about why to maintain so many alternatives (it is hard to maintain, confusing for the user, complex to find information (at least in the package manager there is a description so the user can discover packages there)) and add another one instead of decide for the best we have and maintain and improve it as much as possible. Or provide lower level api functionalities for the popular packages (like ivy), move the others (like ido) to elpa and keep in built-in emacs only the minimal. Best, Ergus