From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode as default Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 21:44:19 +0200 Message-ID: <20180915194419.bty3fzs5tnjez3pq@Ergus> References: <20180913174640.GB4019@ACM> <8736udkuit.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <20180914104833.GA4103@ACM> <83k1nojgia.fsf@gnu.org> <7bed1f76-5bae-44cb-9b22-206b513043be@default> <83d0tfkj77.fsf@gnu.org> <1c393214-c186-4760-9a37-e0450c946446@default> <83zhwji4hx.fsf@gnu.org> <20180915102016.GA15443@ACM> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1537041076 23889 195.159.176.226 (15 Sep 2018 19:51:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2018 19:51:16 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Cc: hw@adminart.net, joostkremers@fastmail.fm, npostavs@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, yurivkhan@gmail.com, Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams , phillip.lord@russet.org.uk To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 15 21:51:11 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1g1Gb0-00066F-Qz for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 21:51:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56526 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g1Gd7-0001ws-EA for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 15:53:21 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:43964) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g1Gc2-0001fS-J7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 15:52:21 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g1GUa-0006wQ-Qr for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 15:44:37 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic308-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([77.238.178.147]:38538) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1g1GUa-0006v6-JK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 15:44:32 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1537040670; bh=Isr6Lv367eT6ecGxiviBDtqYfddk24eFN0p8ICz1WBM=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=tBqIA2fIufeR7bZ6Vo20zjzA52opslws2PNHLG+6Wv0rPiyfJ3EDgrNapeOjpMGr+qYOeckmo/gYKhMEt5qDkyQd9eVbfGwKWCh4u5i+JvAJjAg+lqKu+ItDknR+fkunfnDdjnP8K0AScCBewb+f6hvydIHXBoOBiyauq4o3ICRCGaCJUUDLATSOBcZSMWSCDVJ14BA6VbdY5O0Jkga5YCQqzPzr+u1wc+CmR7piHW3rhoCcAT3Mh23XiiVOTv9mpS1x46IhiM3o/zpxiROBW66rl5jvlPobd6gCB9H27Q+5Q/A+IbWs9AERRWBN8rKiTB41mc6u//pXChNrR1PfCQ== X-YMail-OSG: OBeVHkYVM1mKepvC1H_yykVgLb4W_iHtgzln8gtlc.sCFklUZqUe22DG05.R4im 5e3G..RNnLI2ASBwsYAszJVt2uDmcq_z0oOr5Yip6.a5yKbwHuPFI85H8hmLsYqEioSg9pE8pqWF g16X.O01TIVraxAQALZBWwzzEq_yH_4dobyDtZQljlxCFA3WdkELvQngMl1tc18znYcA4HIBRnPA 7eLuEB4D1arI8voFKKl1NuVRv.d91IraUjhLTnpAtgsAqgELDkwiAutoAtd0t0jSWsFMAC3e5fr3 TV2GX_p7tDhtmAA1BaGmpcxAqA1TrDO04nMDy2H6bTg6UlR9rnrx.JxG7rkGhmReHWOQWtYyFzOZ dDawDdRnKX.ytq8EHfEBeWI.lBf8D3bkc2Tzjk7nZfZc99atzjS6t4eysMWuYC0jZEl_OwQrLgrc r6ofr1zIjFk3MUBhCexCS0hEyKKHS9ZCpvmzV9hw_zNtulxfTIvSFt7jlJwADCPZA4Vt.nu0Zs9Z d0oCREQRrYfAUQ.imUVfHfzFXsA6C4V2weN1PFZoyARq9JpkMYrc9OOZyf5UST1YAK3DjWkVbM7K R4WHTjs0CUjmP7KmeWupjIyn1FXm8ddUCCTAw7rZ_6Fm3dknSFtUjJkRMTvKjb95Gue4Bu1vq0cF FO5aytJYHMBO9ReVRsEae9HT31SjgS1zbqGIg9NFefJ6F4AUtwJwQZKYj14V30zsuwY.9AGN5K_2 wnle61Mr_sXB1LoiRehuytPpb5Bc63gdYMh1NNeuAxPK6ZM2440MI8ZSkJ1nGFNUrRG425LnuXRo 0JZHBynZNBibtcZ4BgDT8Q2eU0skQuSGPGP.36nxcp Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic308.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 19:44:30 +0000 Original-Received: from static-75-33-86-188.ipcom.comunitel.net (EHLO Ergus) ([188.86.33.75]) by smtp420.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d223d076fe56f387568d693b8f8eefef; Sat, 15 Sep 2018 19:44:25 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20180915102016.GA15443@ACM> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 77.238.178.147 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229820 Archived-At: Hi Alan: On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 10:20:16AM +0000, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >Hello, Eli. > >On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 10:50:18 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: > >I can't help feeling that this isn't the right approach. I feel that it >will increase complexity which the new features won't justify. I know >I'm speaking as an "extremist" (i.e. no transient-mark-mode at all) here, >but still: I think having to press a key sequence before d-s-m would work >would take the purpose of d-s-m away - that key sequence might as well be >C-w. > >You seem to be proposing to associate a three-value state with the >region, which state users could change with key sequences. I can see >this being more confusing than the current two-value state (or is it >2.5?) we currently have. > >It might well be that, having introduced transient-mark-mode as a >default, a certain degree of confusion in Emacs is unavoidable. If so, >does it make sense to spend a lot of effort which might merely switch the >confusion to somewhere else? Assuming that we'd want to have options to >retain all the "old" behaviour, I think it would be difficult to avoid >increasing the confusion. > >I've interacted somewhat with hw, who's been driving this thread, and >come to the conclusion that he doesn't really want to use Emacs. The >mechanisms of point, mark, and the regions are fundamental to Emacs and >can't be readily customised away. I don't think we should try to provide >this customisability. > I have also interacted with hw and I totally disagree that he doesn't want to use emacs. Maybe it is because I am a "younger" emacs users too, or that I have tried many other editors & IDEs, but I understand what he says and the fear the first time a user opens emacs comparing to other similar tools. He just perceives the same than I: Emacs needs changes to simplify the user experience, but any key change faces too much resistance. My approach is 1) To keep the default things AS SIMPLE AS POSSIBLE for the user in any case, specially in a basic software like a text editor. (SIMPLE and INTUITIVE if possible) 2) I agree with the Eli's approach to find a mean point that makes less unhappy most of the people (if possible). 3) But interface changes are needed to survive, they require care to avoid conflicts and reduce the collapse with backward compatibility, but are needed. NEVERTHELESS The mark-point approach is not a fundamental emacs thing, it is just a design choice enforced for technical limitations 40 years ago (like the vi modes, the meta-hyper-syntax and so on) This means that (citing Bill Joy about vi) it was created for a world that doesn't exist anymore. So it can (and should) be updated/upgraded as many other things in emacs and any long living project. Many emacs default behaviors are confusing for ALL new users even after reading the tutorial or the manual. Others are just considered as limitations/bugs because they require too many binds or are very difficult to find/remember comparing with other editors. But some of them are design choices made 40, 30 or 20 years ago. New ideas have born after 1980, different approaches that make the user live easier or were impossible to try in 1980. But any intent to change the old, becomes in a thread like this, where many opinions (and very strong ones specially the ones to keep the status quo) come out and conduce to nothing. This difficult to change anything in the user interaction makes emacs to feel still like in 1990 in spite of all the changes and modern stuff if has. It has open doors to the actual vim use increase, the born and HUGE grow of editors like atom and sublime and communities like spacemacs or evil-mode; while the pure emacs use is becoming marginal. There are new functionalities that appeared more recently and Emacs can (and should) incorporate asap out of the box (switching lines, selection highlight, better rectangular selection and interaction). And the real problem to implement all this is not the emacs potential, but the most orthodox/purist users that resist too much to any change. Same thing happens with the suggestions about the tutorial changes, the proposal of a centralized documentation in a web site and so on. I think the only way to properly solve this kind of endless discussions is to ask the users and not only the developers or advanced users. Something like feathub in the emacs page will work (this should be extended to many other GNU projects too). Advantages: 1) Users (new and old) will have a voice in the emacs future. 2) The Developers will know if a proposed functionality will be usefully for many users and check if it worth to invest time in it (and emacs code size). 3) Better interaction user-user and user-developer. 4) Developers will know what are the most demanded functionalities with priorities (easy and fast). 5) Users will have an idea if some functionality will be delivered soon or not and why, and how many other users claimed them. 6) The featured comments opinions arguments and everything will be grouped and ordered and if they reborn after some years will be easier to check if the conditions changed to add it or if I know that the mailing list can offer all this somehow... but again, it is something that can be improved. Thinking as a 2018 under 30 yo user. >Sorry if I've been a bit negative in this post. > >[ .... ] > >-- >Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).