From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 19:59:53 +0200 Message-ID: <20180909175953.5nghqjofhliy6ve6@Ergus> References: <0CCFABF4-0F2B-4DAA-9C8E-11E1254A325E@gmail.com> <834lf0tptp.fsf@gnu.org> <41DF4279-89F4-413A-B3BC-63E9E9E98772@gmail.com> <8336uktk4s.fsf@gnu.org> <20180909131316.GA6047@ACM> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536516606 2528 195.159.176.226 (9 Sep 2018 18:10:06 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 18:10:06 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Bingo , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 09 20:10:02 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fz49o-0000X5-J9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 20:10:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48341 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fz4Bu-0003C8-SL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 14:12:10 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:54073) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fz49n-0001uL-MJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 14:10:05 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fz40F-0005t9-B5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 14:00:12 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic309-25.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([77.238.179.83]:46681) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fz40F-0005qn-2Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 14:00:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1536516005; bh=5GGrwmv5KfquCen97Dey+j8rV0cX28BsGFwDe374+hk=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=CaFTKjaaFmR64JzHFhGgMzcRNqKkVZfzdWNlMqOl4YR2PcsagVAo24VdYJkJdSjoGIrb02QgE6ju7AmQ+EIfixkRZtLFFvkxTqsCheSjPJuUCFLRNOsE8zw4NtIzc0RnSziW7/bW89G6uqLPm17R6xa6XKobG4VJV2x11nUquWWaPn5vExTX6xoFNvmiw0LIrUp9hYkr+U11A/ZnXLUEJGWdjtknqVxqyo4MkYQONHPUsvai7iGUNcj/58vMHhu7NIheI/9T4VFXYztymRrmp2fC5hbeBVil+ywxCgpCIlTfDIdNQCNyhVNlD6XGy5WECSpG/I3UBTLHsbFuNtCdpg== X-YMail-OSG: uuphb2kVM1nGF0_.7Yj1Ljyk14oFDt2Eo7mzTrPKKpfHgm1MLH4O1ozj6nO1dhv 0z3GV3fydNPH3eu.N7p69zeuEGytoFkz7HohhyB8FXXH8uLGVPPEc3vKnedizp_jiCv82YcW.NnW j5WfRIdFlo1EY.L5hx6TFb7kex7zOpLyTzDl_XMgNi8s1yQZrFCI2ctsk.F__hkINS2XEWBsE0JW LwptJElqtCzBDldINbFVlHJN4rh_JqLlv8BX7hT1iNPUUIQw.JK8SjZexpFUZjIcHvkhWRBUuL_O Kf0TKCJ.qRP6SciVsxZcNZS67E68a_98aeY6FEFrvH1ZxAqGShBpHwAmXpKKTSB9AlTK3sxJosas ukuB_zqMCQZIBMdfcY5ycMb0q23SMbT_kAtoac4KTPm6EO.BtXRBN1gmLmp433Q_yl5AP0X4WoA_ mLNIS9nQodjD_Rdt1SrP.M4eDKCbbf2flWzVfX2BB4uTF3tOeitZBTezPMV2XxxJQmRCSwJhK3jt 8DaHAV7wN9_J0yYIFNXQCvk8x1dsoEp8DdxWa.5V4USWwMICf..MkZLFCeHPh8y0.Xww_XAYX_._ MwJa.EcAYGCtVq4Id_XNY5lvEuMTCR8Fzu3tiR_7Uv75ESf0KvaFz7MDFf8EqaC04SxtcL2hHVWE rOU8A4y.WHX9z8BQJjKf4Hnaqcx3Hk9WHGEG3_89.1ngFJG.9D60f1Wmp0uLWmt31wpJQ8PdRn_Q 7CAAXqdWoLQUgepozGlVKeTdgFLesd9PcaF.7pe1MhLnQb9wAcoSsAaFuDL1HUmeDYhqjgcDoUsx PtY6d2MrmkV9g57tfWddR8jdvEUg.tVmzRKxotazXz Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 9 Sep 2018 18:00:05 +0000 Original-Received: from 2.152.205.184.dyn.user.ono.com (EHLO Ergus) ([2.152.205.184]) by smtp426.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID b4a2a0ee2ff3e36505f4092cd19b1902; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 18:00:00 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20180909131316.GA6047@ACM> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 77.238.179.83 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229570 Archived-At: On Sun, Sep 09, 2018 at 01:13:16PM +0000, Alan Mackenzie wrote: >Hello, Eli. > >On Sat, Sep 08, 2018 at 12:26:43 +0300, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> > Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2018 14:03:46 +0530 >> > CC: emacs-devel@gnu.org >> > From: Bingo > >> > 1. When Emacs first starts, see if there is an init file. Various >> > modern software do so, so we would be on solid ground there. > >> > 2. If so, trust the user that he would have set delete-selection-mode >> > as required. > >> I'm not sure this is a valid assumption. A user could have >> delete-selection-mode not turned on because she had no idea such a >> thing existed in Emacs. > >> > This would avoid stepping on the toes of power users : which form >> > the majority of Emacs users. > >> Please note that veteran users only care about defaults when they need >> to use Emacs on someone else's machine, or when logged on as some other >> user (like root or su). > >A third situation, in which at least one veteran user (me) cares is when >testing a bug fix with emacs -Q. In such cases, I can get fairly >irritated by, e.g., transient-mark-mode, and would get even more >irritated were delete-selection-mode to be enabled by default. > >-- >Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany). > I understand this. But then I only see 2 possible solutions: 1) Keep emacs defaults only for experienced users, so forget about getting new users and let it die slowly. 2) Start thinking in the new generations who will inherit emacs but already have a standard idea of how editors should behave; very different of the emacs defaults. As a good consensus (and we are again where this thread started) is the option to make an initial assistant (like the one in spacemacs but maybe more complete) which can provide a bunch of options to the user to set/unset them (with some information or more options depending of the user (it can start with standard, advanced, minimal like many other programs)). And add this configuration as the init file (if there was not one) or as an extra file that cannot be skipped with -Q but with another option that could be added. This is maybe a bit more complicated to implement, but it can satisfy both cases somehow. There is a point where old projects need to adapt themselves to the running times, not only importing functionalities, but also updating functionalities they already have in order to improve them. But we need to think in the normal users which are majority in any project.