From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 19:18:45 +0200 Message-ID: <20180909171845.o5jiqvhsy7pabh43@Ergus> References: <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> <87bm9d9zs9.fsf@russet.org.uk> <87efe75v02.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87sh2lu471.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <87r2i4p2f8.fsf@toy.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536514031 31617 195.159.176.226 (9 Sep 2018 17:27:11 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 17:27:11 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Cc: hw , eliz@gnu.org, phillip.lord@russet.org.uk, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 09 19:27:06 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fz3UH-000869-E9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 19:27:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48134 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fz3WN-0001OD-SL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 13:29:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:44670) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fz3VO-0000rY-Pq for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 13:28:19 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fz3MM-0003tB-NE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 13:18:59 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic301-22.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([77.238.176.99]:41450) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fz3MM-0003rK-9A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 13:18:54 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1536513532; bh=2w2xEhM+oihngC7sjWmIybJCiTBd4xnircryQz/Kve0=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=TJu1Pcauv4uduLavuDGjZyo5YUEhkMtErSknmXKTJRs0itX9tIeatq2tNBctS7kW0MORDewWbpn922iCK2wS+QqGd7YBZ/+SrqLH88CW1nMcejXZE2PHpe1vIwFg6NSDFpGIFs6f9FHEzBToaTJioPyxeu1/4JPJrpJZNWkxbEl47DI5MZKOitS0A6W0K8ndwHPhJ2XvB8IaH+LN15vb3dG2yOJ8cQS1KYTQhyMmOIBSpiBW9GS0KuK8ZZT8YEMBrR1WojJhz+PPW8BIPecdBTNgZ6OJcsWHbdh5tGawsYh1IUBvak4tH13zpPcQsYwx+iz33UhrzVVCVujvxTjIOg== X-YMail-OSG: SdiQV6IVM1kODZopdPiPxMrRvNHXTCEXOMu2uRTKev6pQRmGRexWgFyobOK3tQB VYEMce.CZZ5dQaecUzfNNApuzMcKU2Kv9K6iuKEFOYccKUGikUvAsdwC8I95cGbM.y8TesGij3BQ qR3ajA0W3ljPx8t_.LAGvtldhx5GiSnTMEoIieZq26DvN93oEH19AVuPNEPBpBDEMf22AB4Wtven xNBHzpllli1bl._EEb_EJ95BoDyuJjw4_GaaV0t6KpCXVEjJkvhe81vF6GImHop1QXLZKzf3.lxw oeeQQM0LBnlKq8K3IJpxnlmiEy5LIspEdr.IlGLanv0wvIOwLcr6Yyi6gPf0FWomegbEUbiw0YWf BtW3129UhodqhsljXtz0_orA5aF1l7kIF8WFWV8v84obeeJMwexjB1A.NTFapXtFoO8rOd13Gw4v iH8pAGd.DHv8814hnYVNsH5pMLIAA0JOgimDomP.AAn6Dgg6ZHV7poa97RlxA8YCxB17ykC4wPpx ttLfcv3g9KsqfctJORvTYs0Uk0n52LUWQIUbtC6SDR1DfPqaAcs6MxaNI.MSw0Tii_S4UNuUDwNV cD4LRL7VTmcfGG7K7y9tKN4xINHnqS6I0peqL.SsFF4BYhorqaz.dnLT1W4PAXZOdAR3GodfCZb. sPAeLYR1r4d4.QgsnUNx_85zSqI0dnsmOJ0GS3Uh_92s6Y0O_jnPtcmP8DHdes3YOLNlnn_IXhpq kB9iP0x6mQG7MyBCWWRmXpdBjwOQRYRNLa_ociftB5wrNhZrSGryOMEESmxSb764J508g7m4r6bS j7EoP4_gC1k.HvN3zj8QOBBf0C9B6c8SLRCnHZeGTZ Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic301.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 9 Sep 2018 17:18:52 +0000 Original-Received: from 2.152.205.184.dyn.user.ono.com (EHLO Ergus) ([2.152.205.184]) by smtp419.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 4a9eca757e674a9f6b8218d9df5ff771; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 17:18:52 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 77.238.176.99 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229569 Archived-At: On Sun, Sep 09, 2018 at 02:07:02AM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: >[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] >[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] >[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > > I'm fine with encouraging people to learn these movement keys, but how > > do the available movement keys give beginners good reasons to use Emacs, > > and how do they make using it better for them? > >For the second question, they make cursor motion faster. >The fact that it can be faster is a reason to use Emacs >but I won't claim that reason is visible to people thinking >about using Emacs. > > > Tutorials which take this into account more strongly might be more > > encouraging to use Emacs in the first place, and then beginners might > > want to learn the special movement keys. > >That approach might be good, but what can we do to encourage them to >learn the cursor-motion commands later on? > I just started using the traditional keybindings like 3 months ago and I have been with emacs like 4 years now; so I agree that traditional keybindings are not transcendental to enjoy emacs (or edit efficiently because I made 2 thesis without that). On the other hand I only see some advantage in few of them (C-a, C-e, C-d), but not all. The C-n/p/b/f are closer, that's true, but requires 2 hands constantly in action and p-n-b-f are not close each other (b and f are supposed to be typed with different hands in fact). The arrows, in my keyboard for example, are not far enough from the rest of the keys so using them is just easier (see the hp elitebook keyboards). But also C-b/C-f are not very comfortable to be using them constantly with one hand. I understand that the keys are designed to be easier to remember, but not to type in a qwerty keyboard without extensive training. But the related M-{ M-} are harder remember and to type than C-up C-down because they require 3 (Alt-Shift+) fingers vs 2 (Control+) and are not related with C-p C-n, so also are difficult to remember. So the efficiency advantage of C-* displacement is very subjective in this cases. Comparing for example with vim; the commands are easier to type because with the modes it doesn't need modifiers with the other hand, but also hjkl are close each other. But even with all that, new vim's users prefer the arrows just because "up" is over "down". So I feel like the real issue here is the "backward compatibility" with experienced users. But if that's the only priority, it will be very difficult to attract new users with new ideas and new points of view to emacs. That's why the spacemacs community is growing, because it offers a more familiar behavior (even without evil mode). > > BTW, I still don't see how anyone could move around efficiently when it > > requires to press ESC. Does it require a special keyboard? > >Nowadays, essentially all keyboards have an Alt key, so one never needs >to use ESC for cursor motion. > > >-- >Dr Richard Stallman >President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) >Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) > >