From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 23:14:29 +0200 Message-ID: <20180904211429.zc2cnn2ijskymjak@Ergus> References: <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> <83a7p76f5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8p9o6y.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> <87k1o1a06q.fsf@russet.org.uk> <877ek1ql6u.fsf@toy.adminart.net> <19f783eb-a688-2a69-e209-ea161177c8cb@cs.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536095569 27649 195.159.176.226 (4 Sep 2018 21:12:49 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 21:12:49 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Cc: hw , Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org, Phillip Lord To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 04 23:12:44 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fxIcu-00073C-2A for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 23:12:44 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52667 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxIf0-0007ha-7o for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 17:14:54 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:49920) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxIes-0007hR-6C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 17:14:47 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxIeo-0004Ye-Ne for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 17:14:46 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic306-21.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([77.238.176.207]:33710) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxIeo-0004WL-7s for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 17:14:42 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1536095681; bh=HyIUAR4Mvm7ZEF5+QIq2d3CJPScIaFkqtNoBZx7yPFU=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=MjgckRnQirmvD1ZHC25eyugkrZYNYDFSEzoHafdwg4hyAZtlLS+HpFTrU03+RaAhfx1391OP0tKPv5c+fNYsvKQNkWXfiPbE8WR0+w6wbjheeC109tHuSb8AlhWLE3gsCQ/0Fn6u4wWb5++H3AQYlQAzA/yTdS4B8MCrItGzwlKg/Fc8iGdo4tTpRzU4xWGURgv6CHOgasCGlQCwSj11v+JePFeECwSYKtF1VNW6WzCjbObCXl87FubiAtLDKZo8PhyLIra3ddttafvgb7tJQpz3Ip8Rq3j2laTleDHcMugpSsNoGCjGTB8Z0LPmgET4n8YLKTMwO8R+MlPHNolYYA== X-YMail-OSG: 1r6NLxcVM1ms88FOVBLRm_JFcOVYTsdKBqEh8fzjEu15yvgNv8dluqpfTTbIS58 cUQBKXkA1OF7VWfF1L4RTNkJqFiNpHYubTmfFiKT9IbowjHHZEoBn1BChsSFpM9n.hWD2iCHVOsT A1ihO0R7R3tj.osgzYgrKECGtd9XXH7uEgJjn.6mU_brAfGoW4NX9GZRfVc4cW_9niFUFSIvQnjO RdqTcFl0D0NtxCS6onc4B3fvfCf3EOvqrnuKvyWqOFjVXrV1coc_YmWKd8qP5npqLZf_fqUlQYEB 1616GPvMaGb0Gk0C6fqrt9S9eHgXeylhfXO6AuaUrLmElJZcx1FvcBvUMVrDc7CP6cL1IdVQaHJs SPtlctH_xLFqZ.K8HAh_O54ehDPnrcvYtAjefG9k7xAvUikMyWRhPYhvbfBHWu9UnMOou3VoEynp ElXLHURBWfNLBWTz8CsuT5AWYlkqgfuTBd6zvAkIRARlt8S.wRoP6Idc2G8kax6_IOhLzYbuueFv wLOVJCDxgCJ_4n_LHxq0Iv5bDF23LzMSKqS6udEHHr2MQYiVisMIvRA9lN_UknOw1B347lgae25j l024.mMCNxQAT4Qt03AgUabwlR_nI0aBEE0vadmkKg6L3IDAiIOrQGWdm9yw6Pas.m0.xSZ.P8xA NwlYA7bKQrXfvjmpTExAF2JjYrWAfq8S4PgCzOeP4evalLdzDHShi9WMtUL_oIeTaxUTsEQu6zre hVea3.SXHAQMlqXLzJDudNBsFmLe7mnLfgu87xOy7wMyktaRE8gcvVqSfDVVFVv9oTcbPfot7QCc cLS0SfE886zzTjqs084x3dgGHGmKwP.NgKjaH4D1Oc Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 4 Sep 2018 21:14:40 +0000 Original-Received: from 2.152.205.184.dyn.user.ono.com (EHLO Ergus) ([2.152.205.184]) by smtp414.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID de697700a87d90546024ea2ee9120490; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 21:14:37 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <19f783eb-a688-2a69-e209-ea161177c8cb@cs.ucla.edu> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 77.238.176.207 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229269 Archived-At: On Tue, Sep 04, 2018 at 12:13:36PM -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: >hw wrote: >>My first step with 'emacs -q' would be to make the menu fonts larger. >>As much as I like monospace fonts, the typewriter font used for the text >>was *really ugly* even 30 years ago. One look at Emacs with this font >>might turn most people away before they start reading anything. > >This matches my perception too, when I show Emacs to students. Emacs >starts up in monospace font and that looks sooooo 1980s. It's like >showing them a medieval manuscript: cool in some sense, but they won't >want to spend much of their working lives using it. > >A little bit of marketing would help here. The initial contents of >*scratch*, the mode line, and the minibuffer need not be monospaced, >and would all benefit from a better font. > Yes that was somehow my intention in the beginning. Give to the initial user a better first impression. That includes a better interaction in the beginning, access to customization, but also a better look counts (the default color theme could be very improved). Most new users coming from vim will like to use emacs in the terminal only, but it looks like the latest efforts are now in the gui. I think that new gui or windows users prefer sublime or other editors that behave as they expect (C-c, C-v, click here and there and most things working with no configuration needed) Emacs could provide that experience if that's what the user likes. But developing all this requires many developers, but you only get new developers if you have more users (young students), but to have new users you need a better initial experience... is a vicious circle.