From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 22:57:13 +0200 Message-ID: <20180904205713.ouqux6wi3jqe6zcj@Ergus> References: <83bm9n6f7d.fsf@gnu.org> <87tvneql3i.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83o9dl2oob.fsf@gnu.org> <87y3coopyf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <5261e02f-fd51-7e8d-fb6b-ad013ce2e748@lanl.gov> <87y3cnl7bt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <87y3cl2egd.fsf@fastmail.com> <87r2icey5n.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180902182358.huw3y6jhfr7x4zf2@Ergus> <87tvn5qoe3.fsf@toy.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536094579 30701 195.159.176.226 (4 Sep 2018 20:56:19 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2018 20:56:19 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Cc: Joshua Branson , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: hw Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 04 22:56:15 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fxIMw-0007ob-5j for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 22:56:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52606 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxIP2-0004NJ-CU for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 16:58:24 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40525) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxIO8-0004MJ-Cv for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 16:57:29 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxIO5-0006lx-3V for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 16:57:28 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic307-7.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([87.248.110.32]:41450) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fxIO3-0006kR-2Y for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 16:57:23 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1536094641; bh=Cbwru/aMBWsJyTAJ+MRtczcZgrUS6tfntzZs8fJwcg8=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=qSnWwMfbpZTKbywINlSEpEsPABBysG+Z1hhPMyPebm1qV+rCg905EDDZ2WFcm0DkX3t4CPSptdY+yQ+qqjlhdy5bKx1Q6hszhXGikpG60MnJvdMHtBiV6yYIos6fry0zRJ6TfkG3BG5esepvYzvhyHaGqhFtBjWWvs8Bi6ecf8kHg2A9iADXKMOALHPZfH0OFvdDNmMP14QpKgeAUphw5deA7Kwy1qEGmcuEbPdkFCqGtMMcKSROloOD0h/YAyVu8Y+IHbsLZfrCVS3fcX9QnhG2HMj2pjF+QcFSRR3e4nQQWPelPK51SBPNrv8yD+2KkgHwQcQJ+zHlJ2YRZIlT8A== X-YMail-OSG: zhkDz6sVM1nWrUmNLCFz6ZVTD_WMz5xIhei8MieRVMLIP0cKx52_dT.K3lz1GwI uk4JYxjk86t81w0GL2Ct7IAniHejUG3dA_7CpzmICd29ZP8wDEIyocOsVhcIPmD3OLLq1mcaX_kE VuNSgS7HdEx2P5GISHtg11FJo4NJYQHJ2ucD21zGgpfEUDTB21fsvpM1aOp4YtWthRRL3rtbjEqZ Lo3.fvXpenhaxC4wAoQ5kdGiUaaWPh.Wx.y.cgHKQT91sDr1KagWvLwlR1A6H_6z.nc4RJaXCSVT DXhO8mAPHk2gdIjtaSEEgDed4197xiv5QjlrCRao70.p7xfNdaCqTTCUyspL2oTQwU1P6VLruurn WXS68LvB6ynjNCAB9zbzWayBn6Jz80Gs_g6KullcmCjZJhFEPETIF4HebfXjcqJY9ZTnyZVvTWGG 17vAkdmZMq4B205Yqg032gc3oTI3IMpX4JorGxRshVlLjZFm_t8s89QT_MMYrWayP4TN8.vGskbe bHmiAxVpC1H9ve0rZYTVoZKtaeZMegwk30o5bOV7ZCrAqoTaYY79vV7YS5pdnfVH1AOJ.0Q.sHNV 9ThflQCJ_l4Of5JUBtnGuePvOuJfSLKRJuXux42H.m94P8PBxdL_OxcwzwBQFrbbjaaeQG8uU4i3 h2VnK48CWGkDNZmuviAtLux9VpogLtpQyyIeK.M3txvqgtaHpTYK5XBdjaEU10oC4vhxXSu8itsx VVSU1YFJaMMAwW03BVdsRUvD0mKykaizwRQsDd6nDMA9KMewUa_B.yYfv0MS8EMTMQGn1ztP.sym BdKGdAWUhcaPouQFjXxH9WiNEJozNHOKTtLQLx7B7K Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic307.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 4 Sep 2018 20:57:21 +0000 Original-Received: from 2.152.205.184.dyn.user.ono.com (EHLO Ergus) ([2.152.205.184]) by smtp404.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 4064bc951bafc7cc7fffc42210c2bd87; Tue, 04 Sep 2018 20:57:20 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87tvn5qoe3.fsf@toy.adminart.net> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 87.248.110.32 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229266 Archived-At: On Tue, Sep 04, 2018 at 05:21:40PM +0200, hw wrote: >Ergus writes: > >> On Sun, Sep 02, 2018 at 05:07:00PM +0200, hw wrote: >>>Joshua Branson writes: >>> >>>>> Who would ever press ESC-right or ESC-left to move a word? >>>> >>>> part of this reason is why I started to use evil-mode. :) >>> >>>Right, I thought about doing that since starting to learn vim and >>>understanding how it can be much more efficient than Emacs. >> >> That's relative and very subjective. Modal editing makes not too much >> sense for me in 2018. > >Last night I tried to do some programming with vim, and it was an >interesting experience. I'm not so sure anymore if it can be much more >efficient than Emacs, provided that you use either 100% the way they're >supposed to be used. They're probably bascially the same. > Yes, more or less I agree. > >But how else than modal would you edit? The difference between vim and >Emacs is that Emacs` normal mode is vims insert mode, and Emacs can have >a whole mode hiding behind every key you press rather than only one >"command mode" which limits you to the keys you have available and to >stringing them up. > I my brain at least a text editor should edit and insert a letter if I press it, and extra things require extra commands. The real issue for me is that I can only use the terminal and many keybinds are not available (C-backspace or S-C-backspace for example). That's the reason I have considered to use evil mode sometimes. >After all, I'll stick with Emacs. Vim doesn't seem to have any real >advantages for me, and there are some things I'd be missing. > >> It was a solution in a moment but and according to the vi creator "it >> was for a world that doesn't exist anymore". > >That something is for a world that doesn't exist anymore can be said for >a lot of things. That doesn't mean that what replaces it is any better, >and indeed the replacements are usually much worse. > I agree, that's why we still use emacs :) (or vim). But I find the justification that vim users should move with hjkl (and so on) because it is faster and better because the fingers don't move... so senseless. Is just my feeling. But sometimes I understand them when I have to type C-a C-SPC C-e M-w to select a line because xterm doesn't send C-backspace to emacs. >>>Is it >>>exactly the same as using vim? >>> >> It depends of your use cases. But for just editing, yes, it is pretty much >> the same. Vim users use to complain that evil mode is slower but it is >> more a psychological thing; I have tried to measure what they complain >> about and if it is, should be in the order of micro seconds. > >Someone must have put a lot of work into it. > >>>Why not use vim instead? Does Emacs have advantages over vim when using >>>evil-mode? >> >> Again. It depends of your use cases. To edit simple files there is not >> real difference, no advantage or disadvantage as editing is the basic >> functionality. > >Well, that could be said for all editors. Exactly. Emacs is not just an editor, but as a simple editor even nano is good enough (except for the undo lacking but our redo is not as good as it can be without undo-tree, this is one of the default things I would really like to change, the default undo behavior). > >> But if you do serious programming in big projects, edit remote files >> in multiple servers cross coping between them, you want to use irony >> or rtagsor for C++, gtags for cross referencing, gdb inside the same >> editor, manage cmake projects in the projectile way or simply handle >> git with magit; or if you plan to customize details for your specific >> files or systems... it is very hard in vim some of these are >> impossible. > >That seems to go along with my impression that Emacs has some >fundamental features that have allowed it to become far more >sophisticated than vim. To begin with, vim is painfully lacking the >concept of buffers Emacs has always had. > >>>Vim even does syntax highlighting for fvwm out of the box. >>> >> have you tried config-mode, is a bit generic, but I use i3wm and it works for me? > >Maybe that is what vim is using. > >>>I managed to find an fvwm-mode for emacs (which needs some work) years >>>ago, but why isn't that shipped with Emacs by default? >>> >> I thing because the intersection of the groups of people who use fvwm >> and emacs is close to zero > >Why wouldn't people using Emacs not also use fvwm? I'd say particularly >those using fvwm would be using Emacs, and the other way round. > >Besides, why would anyone use anything else than fvwm? > JA JA, I didn't even know that fvwm existed, I will give a try :p but I prefer tilling wm. >> and the package is kind of unmaintained. But you are very welcome to >> adopt and collaborate with that :) > >Yeah I'm thinking about doing that. It must be rather old because it >doesn't seem to recognize quite a few of the keywords. > >Hm, the version I have is 8 years old, and it says it's under GPL. Do >you know anything about it? I only remember I found it somewhere, and >it could be painfully slow sometimes. > >,---- >| ;; $Id: fvwm-mode.el 232 2010-10-29 16:48:05Z dragon $ >| ;; >| ;; Release 1.6.2 >| ;; >| ;; Copyright (C) 2005-2009 Bert Geens >`---- > >Well, i could ask him :) Or perhaps there is an entirely different >mode? > >>>(Uh, we probably shouldn't discuss this there --- feel free to send me >>>an email directly :) >>> >> Why not? > >This is a development mailing list, and I wouldn't want to start an >editor war. > The editor war finished a long time ago and in spite nobody won then, now Emacs is sadly loosing the postwar stage in my opinion. That's a long discussion to have. Best, Esgus