From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 19:52:17 +0200 Message-ID: <20180902175217.qmc6oqj74gcmzwcs@Ergus> References: <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> <83a7p76f5e.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8p9o6y.fsf@russet.org.uk> <83pnxx1foj.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1535910759 7969 195.159.176.226 (2 Sep 2018 17:52:39 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 17:52:39 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Cc: hw@adminart.net, Eli Zaretskii , phillip.lord@russet.org.uk, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Richard Stallman Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 02 19:52:35 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fwWY6-0001uB-Og for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 19:52:35 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41928 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwWaC-00056P-K4 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 13:54:44 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40360) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwWYx-000562-7C for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 13:53:30 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwWY0-0001d7-6k for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 13:52:31 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic305-20.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([77.238.177.82]:45657) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwWXz-0001cT-TN for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 13:52:28 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1535910746; bh=aV9HVYdV4i7x9a5IOY2OFI6UPcOS9W8imjmlbslnWOo=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=c1kL9p/NUxVD/3OgUZzfwGDLHv9XsmI9k+2VhF7oct5GNJfS0loes/ymyRr1Mcu9SE0jJu7IoGIySUIHMqH0KI7OTmLX/wFGBctLyUzWudYTqO3XOTi3KbG3QoBfMv2Zs3Eja8JtOM1wGO0cP8ezgVMuqqFckzRO8jyZ2LTMCxacUUChevSeovHGsdq8T8AXl/uIB0v7B9m3eLJN7QLaRCcHwzkw9gldTg8bYyEY8kIpREdyiTy13kXcTDuIWSnCXSmZTWnCkm7dntMl0XqAO66IVj56IqblmEOK3XHL8vmNT+dlBcxguxG1Ej5xrLNSCszZnhFDLzZHc8Bc0jnQZQ== X-YMail-OSG: 37FMPFcVM1kBiyTZW6rfymISd0Kbq4..zbGX1U3SDpa4OZ30hYilfhJEIfijOEw hZfgcTpSSs5CVkQaivoch_MZvjhCo0hFuyz7xc3HFzZzFXRjKsJjmsblq.Yhrop39UxvPjs0sscb wLVEtwa3xkO2OieLjppNxl4eMOatI6jkIQWwX08d8CMXWZ_xguJFHg5mhomtVefY6pvyAQKIiyLZ UIWcC6.u_aA6mpEBUdF0Gs6td17qH9RPowJe.CynDLk4fkbAxx3HzNGOy32Vr8.IgfYsF9yF2IiL bAFbevSoyd.SC9obOeyvGwQxqFMG7QlrokM3Ws7yhnqwKa.GdStbShTshFyU7mxtwd4XZCxMbq6c ba87SUK5aZgdxruU1uT4KwQpSi8fjS4I7TVgVAZo75IhfPYYsbtlcGljSB.20mb12EuLS4.ka2py UeoAj4Rt7d8qUyHvvm9gziBxQ0WxKONz6xFVsFjz5ZvhmndvifB_VdJ.Z2JuEQ2dx8i7YWZgDLfi 1xYTgmmwLVMrHs7NxxHy6trOVv48Gdrow_VSJG2RYrJ0OKWg0dm6ABwfKWa8KaeiuIRkB2_rabmX jNDfN5wbia7ZxpRYnH2XJegVb03zZo0T67aMo2NgbLS2pNVIERnVC6a4EJzFaax.tFrefVT1w_LP pzKE4JL0WUPEtaoGIv6_L3Wfb6is4X.dgLm_8H4YGNixoVjkztSVOd7OCPetthSgCHx296.Kc7uO CZLnnTwo3VWviXy7.ufOTTMM7HTBb9b7.UPk4K_Kx7IMdKVBZzlqcOUbQMhjq40UK7fQOEa3dybS cEoEo.TCa4PB_CCMPWol7Rvs2j7puYBRO2j4t7NWuh Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic305.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 2 Sep 2018 17:52:26 +0000 Original-Received: from 2.152.205.184.dyn.user.ono.com (EHLO Ergus) ([2.152.205.184]) by smtp417.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID a8ae81f75499853cf5ada8de4eaadd68; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 17:52:23 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 77.238.177.82 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229189 Archived-At: I find the new one a little bit more simple, very basic, but some details are updated in a less technical language. It assumes that for new users coming from windows, vim, sublime, Visual Studio...; Emacs will be a more different (hard maybe) experience than what they expect and are used to. (For example coping with C-c, C-v, and having an undo and a redo option is an absolute standard thing today and it is still different in emacs; also nobody uses the words yank, kill, reinsert anymore, the people looks for how to cut, copy and paste) The actual tutorial is fine, but in my modest opinion I would like to suggest some pedagogical changes like divide it by numbered lessons, put numbers to the tasks, add summaries per lesson, some aesthetic horizontal lines... Please, give a look for example to the vimtutor. It has a very good approach in this aspects. Respecting to content maybe some details about using overwrite-mode (using the Insert key of course), moving/copping/switching lines/words/letters, interactive replace (M-%) shell commands (M-| and M-! and in-place insertion), insert-buffer/file and equivalent commands. Practical examples about killing N words or N lines and paste them somewhere else. Goto line is also important on the beginning. In i think that the emacs tutorial should explain at least the same points than vimtutor respecting to text edition because that's the first thing the user expects to do in emacs. If some edition actions in the vimtutor are not possible or very complex to do in emacs maybe we need to consider how to add them in a simpler way because they are very basic (for example copy the current line requires C-a C-SPC C-e M-w). These details are more important and basic for a new user than recursive editing modes or talking about multiple frames/windows in the first day. We should also mention there helpful things like which-key, ido-mode, linum which makes our lives easier. Does it makes sense? On Sat, Sep 01, 2018 at 11:11:48PM -0400, Richard Stallman wrote: >[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] >[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] >[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > >The existing TUTORIAL file is designed so that you try out the commands >while editing TUTORIAL itself. > >I get the impression that the proposed new tutorial doesn't do that. > >What are the intended advantages of the new one? >-- >Dr Richard Stallman >President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) >Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org) > > >