From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 19:50:52 +0200 Message-ID: <20180902175052.m4la6dtlajhaxna3@Ergus> References: <87k1od7vzf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83wosd5h3x.fsf@gnu.org> <871sakzssu.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83bm9n6f7d.fsf@gnu.org> <87tvneql3i.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83o9dl2oob.fsf@gnu.org> <87y3coopyf.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <5261e02f-fd51-7e8d-fb6b-ad013ce2e748@lanl.gov> <87y3cnl7bt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1535910781 9773 195.159.176.226 (2 Sep 2018 17:53:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2018 17:53:01 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , radon.neon@gmail.com, flexibeast@gmail.com, Emacs development discussions To: hw Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Sep 02 19:52:57 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fwWYS-0002RE-Re for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 19:52:57 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:41929 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwWaZ-0005Ac-4E for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 13:55:07 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40360) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwWZ7-000562-MJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 13:53:40 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwWWg-00016G-1c for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 13:51:10 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic309-25.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([77.238.179.83]:45525) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fwWWf-00015U-97 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 13:51:05 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1535910663; bh=RR+6+dKlLZsUeJD4Fqklf9zM8+3X19ezKjZnhpM1JWg=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=cfNtoZOsWJ/j4ZXYG4YOgWOI/rgjRd19UULZUj6t5xtQnauKyIS3SpAwsLvxfMYEJmjDBZOxiINYNLqZ9tU8nu7z/gbTj4DeJ351BO0XW9tVtDFHQ8CzBRv2ahWQJqJ6rM7Rj7JH2PDYBy5VGWrRSdRZoVEhnk6v1XnnnWHpjiAr+mAq72Qnj4StrVOA5POeGivFzY+jsXgGi4NzVWixqTnzgUvKXtAEEOnEQ0wvDe+UbUfwl6+tu9wVof8qK8t3JQz1tTo+HnXF2Z+mU+UPCfWTNLjkehd6F7Os1tvO7UXZMCRgfUI9KVUSIh+SQzE/45fINtlC3lVi3/h0JhAluA== X-YMail-OSG: hueWHDYVM1nfx0rZG66EqLBKRvmWjyLXLyCDbDVqpiASzmw6wAxF5V3IxlGztKX xMFBmL_Loc1Fg9vwTFriWw0bw91il2wrWIfgMkhlY.4LoAHUlaXvmR6NFDfknbn3lttLszXMNhkz ZQVV9lQ4zyPhyuRfya8egkbCWud7VZU6sF_Ew5xqxID7VMtAbAHb4HjHurDfxvOYIn_kfW2KOiPD Q4JioEUEpIOLi7G4swoHV5FA.y5UTWm_gNbCzHtgxlrZm2o72N9Qz08tTsODagUUW6j2wIvqBK_r DDBB9dZDwETY.8fKCTr6CFvgWtn5JxNvDjYOrTcgCAZeuVwytXhCZSAzuOJ79WawHzpBeSff9qEw bysmHuPuZ4GQvqsaWawhDxbGL7qct2denz747e80VINayW1CZhXW711XVTHMr1rlAERCzMefkGpg Xr4Dv744SVWM_2PaZcWuFj633UVAWxwi1oFpT9afVCnkjyPlR7QllG95v1ntu_TcpWJQhlek5.jy pnUyI.eXl65oQz4TA9gjolGeddexXZRxvEgmAQtcZH1qpYMnaUDwtEtHEf2wUR98MIdk0KvZoQZd aYnTypEispgESnfAfak5z2LXIAfYlsuAbSK82yOA2icI95bJkWD_.oYyj.rhqrVmsRyU0phHfw.W gV.F36IqeGbKcdls8s2LkKuCe4QI9VJx0Cj1p9ppztqxdvpyix2tb.omPqL8qOKS.Fpqu2gbY.iz V5yTwmczYPhNOlHYeGhiK.U_t6mNLW2DB9peArUcs07hsXunSxkyOzdtxr9rZbwXCRFluT5PJglu eDK986V5MpeI5rm3akiTcm9CkD6b3_Hoygv_HhjTEM Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic309.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Sun, 2 Sep 2018 17:51:03 +0000 Original-Received: from 2.152.205.184.dyn.user.ono.com (EHLO Ergus) ([2.152.205.184]) by smtp406.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID d4d80d11a6fa0bb4914acc77bf44d754; Sun, 02 Sep 2018 17:50:58 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87y3cnl7bt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 77.238.179.83 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229190 Archived-At: On Sat, Sep 01, 2018 at 07:40:48PM +0200, hw wrote: > Davis Herring writes: > > > > > > And I don't remember how to get back when following links in > > > > > info documentation > > > > > > > > You can type 'l' (for "last"), or use the left arrow button on > > > > the tool bar, or click on "Info" in the menu bar and select > > > > "Back in History", or click on Info->History and select any node > > > > you visited at random. > > > > > > Ah! I remembered something about arrows and tried to use the > > > cursor keys --- how about making it so that you can go back and > > > forth in info with Alt+ like you can do in web browsers? > > > > There is the usual issue of Emacs' traditional keybindings clashing > > with those from other (usually newer) domains: Alt generally meaning > > Meta, M-left/M-right are already used for backward-/forward-word. > > Meta seems to be ESC. Alt doesn't do anything like what ESC does, and > I inevitably have two entirely different Alt keys because I'm using a > German keyboard. > > Some key combinations that require some combination of Meta and > Control do not work at all. > > Who would ever press ESC-right or ESC-left to move a word? > > Hm, ok, I tried Alt, and it now does work, at least in an X frame. > Only the Alt key is on the wrong side of the keyboard, as is ESC, to > be useful for moving. > > Since when does Alt work the same as ESC? > Alt and ESC in fact doesn't work exactly the same way . Alt is Meta so it acts as a modifiers; so you need to press it simultaneously with some other (ex: M-x) to send anything. This is not emacs this is related with vt*** and traditiona ascii codes. ESC on the other hand is not a modifier; so it is not needed to press both keys at the time and you can press one after the other as a sequence (ex: ESC x) > > Of course, we also have M-b/M-f for those, but the point is that > > such changes do not come without cost. You are free to argue > > something along the lines of "For the future userbase of Emacs, > > consistency with the rest of the world is important enough to change > > X.", but that's quite a bit different from "how about...?". > > The issue in this case is not traditional key bindings vs. more > recently invented ones. The issue is that I very rarely use info and > thus do not remember its key bindings. Does the help page I got stuck > in say anywhere how to get back? > > Why shouldn't Emacs adjust to changes and adopt new key bindings so it > becomes easier to use? There have been many tries for this, so you have many options to test: - cua-mode: https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CuaMode - ergoemacs: http://ergoemacs.github.io/ - god-mode: https://github.com/chrisdone/god-mode - evil, vile and the rest of vim emulation packages. - And in spacemacs there is something new called hybrid mode. http://spacemacs.org/doc/DOCUMENTATION As you can see there are many different criteria about what is "better". On the other hand, I also agree that sometimes dealing with keybindings is a problem ( ex: C-i, C-?, C-: ) for that reason many new users use evil mode more and more (in spite of the modes changes designs are annoying and non intuitive). The extension of evil mode was, in fact, one of the reasons why I made some of the initial questions when started this thread. To ease the initial experience for new times, new users, new standards. Because it is possible in emacs... but after a lot of configuration. A good point in favor is that Emacs keybindings are the one by default in bash and many gui applications because the alternative is to make everything modal. > > > > I have menu and toolbar disabled ... The menu and tool bar are in fact examples of the emacs adaptations to changes. Hardcore users disable them because they want a clean screen... or a vim like experience. But it is there for a reason, specially when it is a new user. In a gui interaction problems with keybinds are avoided in part because no terminal filters the commands you sent to emacs and because the options are available with the mouse and the menus. I use emacs always in the terminal because of my work and the better or worse behavior strongly depends if I am using xterm, gnome-terminal or termite... but that's not an emacs issue. (For example binding C-i was a harder task to what I expected, and I only could do it with xterm). Make everything gui and terminal compatible with everything new and backward compatible is very difficult, specially after 30 years. > > > > Complaining about navigability and discoverability of an interface > > while having disabled its most discoverable features meant to guide > > new users is a strange combination. > > I'm pointing out a usability issue and you call it complaining. That > must be the right attitude. > > Fine, I'll give vim a try. > OK, if you just want an editor, you don't plan to extend it or personalize..., just follow the editor's rules, you can deal with the mode changes constantly... go for it, it is a good editor, but only that, an editor. Then try to change any default keybinding in vim design.... propose that... good look... I came from there a long time ago. They are still with hjkl as arrows. And using the real arrows is a kind of capital sin with no serious arguments... > > PS: I tried vim in the meantime, and I'll probably switch. > You are free :) > > > Basically, I want to use the Emacs server the usual way how you > > > use any server, like a web server or an ssh server or an XMPP > > > server. > > > > Or an X server, which is attached to the hardware that faces the > > user? There's more than one way to think of the word. > > I don't want it to use like an X server, and there are always many > ways to think of all words. >