From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 04:18:54 +0200 Message-ID: <20180827021854.vws5kgwldksmzx7l@Ergus> References: <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <8736v6icgt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83tvnmb958.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <87k1oeaofu.fsf@ada> <87va7y6j8z.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1535336323 20752 195.159.176.226 (27 Aug 2018 02:18:43 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 02:18:43 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Alexis , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: hw Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 27 04:18:38 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fu76y-0005GE-Bq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 04:18:36 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51011 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fu794-0004dn-6t for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 26 Aug 2018 22:20:46 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:35314) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fu77U-0004cn-4p for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Aug 2018 22:19:09 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fu77Q-0007c8-RP for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Aug 2018 22:19:08 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic303-19.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([77.238.178.200]:45019) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fu77Q-0007aD-EZ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Aug 2018 22:19:04 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1535336343; bh=6gjmfCAho50omWZ0DsWaMthmW81Vteodtx1dN5p4qag=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=hqI2O/nWjFuzeXQO5dziR/apFFB92lZMrSCNNP84No9wDo5HlZJfyvWUcOjugYPPkCl/hi49Nvv15kV43BdKSr3Ze60R5aU3adMdPDfAZz+RGY1B3nv6G31WId74Dc8GzNRbaJR36f3gBWf3niqSKPDAkbSMgXa4eZ2j0Im0tcrbUFvmRMPi/oazP+SNU0PofTu8wDsk74J+kQ2nHud5O05JEZfIgCvs98eONx1XZQJ0SYwULevDjdEsOna+LLxXBQQ2ZS32oPC1ngeRf4CFnSaijPQnP2mjB342LFa2IciWa6U5ZX1NLRQlaDXfETvu5FxYCTmwe4s5yFauBcxpBQ== X-YMail-OSG: Vkid06IVM1mNmmjtvzLS.tleMvLIMylnHyHYzlH06U9ir2Ecpesn3ODA3SWFtm1 bM2cp21ZlZN0voawhMA8jPkfhH3VR7kDPcZ.5TqbovV4BDRYxG5hd64U_1tKrFuGiLsVem4i1HQg 0TxLVVA8dvqmcHHkIw.Fbr_.4vcXfau.a2eBRz0eNekynzEZ61ulXSr2wT_cwhKqSsC8jfmIaJJ. pNc_ODohpiF0ocRi.CZ6nz8DMvmiC1e6.K7RxQfz5GI6X_kUj7jHwUPZEMcWqkxAhzNc5P_ekfUP 3Ru.Rm_T1sjimQtUCFogoHTClUAn.oGEGNrEBGrvONLble7WqPimS8_fkLLpz9glcIAzLFJLcQbJ 74jup19mSBLLwZAObiJxGzk74rnPKYFjIsogMkJYbmCo5ZwqR4hUv1OR0gZUGkN3KFsCCgDwYMva vr_dZn2RZPm0ll4ms0WkvjI1M1gKWesuZv0a6uW3vIPkHDA4CVarkQ7WuRAj5ugaIEHdLzIdQeKH HlvoQRpHZhSId38VsIR3D86skszx5aSOc0KAqCATRdGfx8DzqwulvmiGilY0AjQJ6icOJrhmZ.Xg rpNUab1M_Osapen6trCmiv8OyI0jBcutzaIcGIH9R0ThZVwApLu_7C_uWfsLR7VAF3DF5ZAPS39u 6bGqrftqqzUcJc7Rvduquq.oBASzOkuQqUxJYDYeKTWOoBGh2w4hXmXoMgBSaL5u5taLFgSQub8l cYLecPb.qThbJqrn0AIa0Tp0JlABqwkN2ruvqaw.pf0tEBE687CfgA0SvhjhHduJ33GUo2KYm17t f2Mvi5Q48kK22lHeB_LlxnBFLIBjSrkCv14StjTrIA Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic303.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 02:19:03 +0000 Original-Received: from 2.152.205.184.dyn.user.ono.com (EHLO Ergus) ([2.152.205.184]) by smtp423.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 705c172670d7c9a3fb3adf169f1f13bd; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 02:19:01 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87va7y6j8z.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 77.238.178.200 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:228957 Archived-At: On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 03:06:35PM +0200, hw wrote: >Alexis writes: > >> hw writes: >> >>> Maybe Emacs should give us warnings when it discovers outdated, >>> deprecated or useless settings in ~/.emacs. >> >> i imagine many people might want this; but many people might /not/ >> want this if it has a noticeable impact on startup times. Startup >> times don't usually have an impact on me personally, since i run an >> Emacs server at machine startup and connect clients to that. From what >> i've read, however, a number of people find even an extra 0.5s-1.0s in >> startup to be significant when jumping in and out of a non-client >> Emacs instance. So if this feature did have an impact on startup >> times, people would want to be able to enable and disable it at will. > >Right, the check is more something that to enabled every know and then >rather something that would need to be done on each start. > >How does 0.5--1 second more or less time needed for booting make a >difference? > >>> get into documentation hell because it's hard to tell which >>> documentation is up to date >> >> One of the pleasures i find in using Emacs is its extensive >> accompanying documentation, documentation which (in my experience) is >> typically far better maintained than that of many other >> projects[1]. > >Yes :) And I learned from this thread that I need to pay more attention >to the documentation. There is lots I haven't looked at yet, and it >continues to evolve. I guess it just doesn't come to mind because I'm >so much used to search the internet to find something. > >> As someone who has been using Emacs for around 20 years, >> i very much appreciate the comprehensive NEWS file with each release, > >There is a NEWS file? Yes, I usually look for it, but online :p > >> which allows me to quite quickly ascertain what changes have been made >> that might affect my configuration and workflow (e.g. changed default >> values). >> >> i say this because i'm wondering which area(s) of documentation you're >> having these difficulties with? > >It was Ergus who finds this difficult. When I started yes, it was difficult. Mainly because the names, the terms and all the environment were all new and very different of everything else I used before. Some keybindings in the documentations didn't work because they were conflicting with the gnome-terminal ones (as I was using ssh connections with no tramp). There was not redo in the usual way (still very confusing for me). And many configurations and help I found in the web was in Lisp which is also very different from python, C, Ruby, Fortran... > >> If you're talking about the Emacs Wiki at emacswiki.org, well, as far >> as i'm aware, that's not an official wiki, is it[2]? Nor is >> wikemacs.org. i personally much prefer the latter to the former. > >Well, yes, it is what I find when I search, and it doesn't matter if >something is official or not when I need to solve a particular problem >because when the solution is good, what difference does it make? > >Documentation that can be found can always be old when the software it >refers to is old. You always have to wonder if there is something more >recent that makes the old documentation outdated or irrelevant. > >Emacs stands out in this because it has not only been around for a long >time but continues to evolve at a relatively fast pace compared to other >software that has also been around for ages. While old documentation >for other software may still be relevant, old documentation for Emacs >might not be because Emacs has moved on while the other software has >not. > >> But i strongly feel that people's first destinations when searching >> for documentation should be the Emacs Manual and the Emacs Lisp >> Reference Manual - only after not being able to locate the information >> in those manuals, making sure to make use their excellent indexes, >> should one consider trying to find information on the two wikis. i >> regularly find myself responding to "How do I do X in Emacs?" >> questions with "Here's the relevant section of the relevant manual." > >Perhaps that's because it is so much easier and so much more a habit to >enter some search term into a search engine and to browse the findings >than it is to go through the documentation that comes with Emacs. > >> At any rate, one should certainly consider submitting a bug report >> about inadequate or inaccurate documentation for functionality shipped >> with Emacs. Even if no volunteer can immediately address it, at least >> it's recorded as something for potential volunteers to work on. > >I continue to be amazed and delighted with how exceptionally responsive >and interested the developers of Emacs are and how much help you can get >when you only ask. This is just wonderful :) > >Making bug reports is worthwhile with Emacs because the developers take >care of them and bugs do get fixed. All this is something other >projects could learn a lot from. > >>> I had auto-complete working (until I disabled it because it got into >>> my way by trying to automatically complete everything when I used >>> Emacs for something I didn't install auto-complete for), installed >>> from a git repo somewhere on github. >> >> Do you literally mean the `auto-complete.el' package and its >> associated `ac-*' packages? Is that still maintained? > > >cat ~/emacs/auto-complete/.git/config >[...] >[remote "origin"] > url = https://github.com/auto-complete/auto-complete.git >[...] > > >It looks like the last commit was two years ago. I guess it was still >maintained when I tried it four years ago :) > >> i'm using company` as my autocompletion framework, myself. But neither >> is shipped with Emacs, and there's no index entry for `auto-complete' >> or autocomplete' in the Emacs Manual, which probably comes as a >> surprise to the many people who have come to expect autocompletion as >> basic functionality in a programming environment .... > >Auto completion is worse than a phone ringing, a notification popping up >on the screen, someone asking you a question and/or wanting you to do >something or people talking in front of your office while you are trying >to program. Auto completion is worse because these things are temporary >and cause you to loose only anything between 10 minutes and 2 hours >while auto completion interrupts you constantly and thus prevents you >from getting anything programmed at all. > >So why would anyone want to torture themselves with auto completion? > Because they look for: "auto completion emacs" and that's the result they get. So the experience is bad and they move to sublime because emacs completion was bad. > >Gnus is shipped with Emacs. Have you ever tried to get it to work? > I tried but it didn't work for me, and in spite there are alternatives like mu4e the documentation directs you to gnus. >> i think this is indeed a problem, but unfortunately, i don't have any >> suggestions as to how it might be addressed. :-( > >I think if we could make configuration packages that handle all the >dependencies and perhaps deal with alternatives, such packages could be >made for particular use cases. > >> >> [1] OpenBSD is probably the other project i think of when thinking of >> excellence in documentation. Comparing `man 4 intro' for the Linux >> kernel vs. `man 4 intro' for the OpenBSD kernel is eye-opening. > >I never looked at either ... > >"Section 4 of the manual describes special files (devices)." > >You must have different manpages. > >> [2] i have the impression that many people assume it /is/ an official >> Emacs wiki, so if its not, this fact might need to be somehow >> emphasised or made more clear. > >Is there another one? Maybe it also needs to point to the documentation >that comes with Emacs and tell people to always lock there to verify the >information in the wiki. But then, do I need to learn elisp before I >could have a function like (goto-matching-fence) because I'm supposed to >verify that it is not out of date? > >Perhaps nowadays, a wiki is the way to go because it suits the way how >people find information. Long ago, we were reading the documentation >that came packaged with the software because we didn't have the kind of >internet access we now have. Nowadays, we wish that documentation came >with the software like it used to. > >Would it be possible to convert the documentation that comes with Emacs >into a wiki? > > +1 to this. And a foro where the users can interact dynamically, and give answers each other, so all the support does not fall on the emacs developers, but the users can help each other. I told before: a mailing list is so 1998. We need some feedback from the users if we want more/newer users. Vim made like a features claim page where the users report what they want to see in the next releases, and they vote for them. So the developers with a simple look knows what is coming next