From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Ergus Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Some developement questions Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 03:54:22 +0200 Message-ID: <20180827015422.lcq44zvsjffeau4j@Ergus> References: <8336v6cvem.fsf@gnu.org> <8736v6icgt.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83tvnmb958.fsf@gnu.org> <877ekigiiw.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <837ekhb2me.fsf@gnu.org> <87zhxcbmtr.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83in409lub.fsf@gnu.org> <871sanb71j.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> <83y3cu7t9j.fsf@gnu.org> <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1535335118 32589 195.159.176.226 (27 Aug 2018 01:58:38 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2018 01:58:38 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: NeoMutt/20180716 Cc: Eli Zaretskii , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: hw Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Aug 27 03:58:34 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fu6nZ-0008M4-B1 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 03:58:34 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50968 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fu6pf-0006Nq-Io for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 26 Aug 2018 22:00:43 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:42799) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fu6or-00068k-Jg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Aug 2018 21:59:56 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fu6jh-0007c2-8D for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Aug 2018 21:54:36 -0400 Original-Received: from sonic310-14.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com ([77.238.177.35]:35197) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fu6jh-0007aD-1a for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 26 Aug 2018 21:54:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=aol.com; s=a2048; t=1535334870; bh=V/cBXCmPJC5ABkMC6agiJ6mp7kUeRUz6Xb+KtzmX7cQ=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From:Subject; b=H8bUmDcTaVN0u6ghC+5SvpXrZn97XHrF9tmzll7VteoGE2NUaaDEY32zlcNY/sXBBYKiSat384w4OqpwaLvLuU86ZyZpDTHc0HUGIQTzrPXK731uVYXoSDp+vJStzGqJ9Zkn79vcXWIWQC4BrWQceIl5J3PxIxzIn2ykR3Wrqdp6kAoQokFWbs5/hqAu9gvYfDmsrgQQmQdgAhnVDVW7xupM/E+itiVog0DBNyEQfsgeRQEJKq+BUlp2OQWjmMn1p2KqL5ipsXhAiS2ygdJi5l9w2tg/ALTVLOy4G44b6h+wUwF4V7+f502YwF73AqcipujCD/Eki64zx3nOZ4rLsw== X-YMail-OSG: 4ykSU80VM1l5O.HenBbL_br3DGX7.HqgzFYWlFz14zzD1GYGsTmU6ToPEX8HUwL wCcnO5aRrEGhwYM2HiuFf3Eyfwn1qzBnE71Wj5cdE6bwssDPXgSCUMbzGzb0LabUQZKzKyGaXm2g SgGDDLfiWvLFQWzACgsrWdPneNQ7sDMOJhNb9wv1vNT9zzKhzze1eMWXFu1AhuPZN81wCL5a6WWf WHBd__P0dooRz4Ot3PDp3J9XfoGg1raKIoh2UTvf7FG7Hi4.wg0sRVV7vcsm5jM.woRUGFH3Qwng NQAf6uhjb3uGQA1HBeIHSX4qJGPj2o1eceNjQN0ihLZKk7Y2CY2ATKKhP2Iqg8QYKgJt6quCtn6R JQyK9_yDczmzQ2aZ97mOaMhL7Lq8WaqHsW51I4Wz7xnCnW84Z_wtJOFeEv92TUN8vho0cmMkcgOE FOHZLaEwIs7HoW5PSNc38qGW4EMoGmLII1L3TzrIH7vDtrStFkMWOUkjZRFIc5UsffhWuI71PUBO vl.vvdMKNV42lKFJgzHuHikVS7X4qUDhnjgV3TPHcCUXLJWGwaYLM07EFGe1F4.wmqu31S9B5Xmu 4Ql5grPkhLaZftYmmGyYuV3Y35abN6xVF1t2Pa0KCncF901UupVJZS6kttHIbE_njLC97EOKa2eb TsjMsur7a3_n.P5qcHSFRUtUMRVOipKr3dzlIhmVa7KdO4X41YsPte6OX.LfBIpCEsXdyjNtrx0G Y6oJs_5XsTHgcB5MiQsHKiFOF9qW.N3KjojJU8j4rLwqc3VpFd9KiIEHvJNwTNMc.Zhjf6h8dfip 7UmihVWXmjW_Brm6Ap6GQxLMhn8pFRqr68wm7q2b6h Original-Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic310.consmr.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 01:54:30 +0000 Original-Received: from 2.152.205.184.dyn.user.ono.com (EHLO Ergus) ([2.152.205.184]) by smtp429.mail.ir2.yahoo.com (Oath Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 833baa5a7e7df7423baae0a37ce157ca; Mon, 27 Aug 2018 01:54:29 +0000 (UTC) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87lg8t2ki9.fsf@himinbjorg.adminart.net> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 77.238.177.35 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:228956 Archived-At: On Sun, Aug 26, 2018 at 05:52:14PM +0200, hw wrote: >Eli Zaretskii writes: > >>> From: hw >>> Cc: spacibba@aol.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org >>> Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2018 03:31:18 +0200 >>> >>> >> (setq Man-width 75) >>> > >>> > Emacs nowadays calculates the width dynamically, depending on the >>> > dimensions of the window. >>> >>> Why not make Emacs dynamically size it's windows to the width of the >>> display first? ;~O >>> >>> >>> >>> Yes, Emacs can do that since a while, and has made it an extremely >>> annoying default. Who wants to read manual pages or other text when it >>> has been formatted to be about 140--300 characters per line wide (and >>> way more than that if my eyes were what they used to be)? >>> [...] >>> This is a good example for a default that really should be changed. >> >> Feel free to file a bug report about it. > >Hm, ok, I did that (no response yet). Let's see what happens. > >>> Think of what Ergus pointed out in his last post[1] about the >>> difficulties users and Emacs are experiencing: >> [...] >>> + get nothing to work >> >> I agree that practical steps towards helping new users is something >> that are very welcome. > use-packages can make the life much more easier handling dependencies in a way that it is not so esoteric to understand the configuration. I can't understand why melpa/elpa configuration is not default in emacs. Same for use-package. So new users can find no so cumbersome adding a new package in the documentation, as well as migration between machines. I thing there should be also an emacs tutorial centered only in text editing, because the basic tutorial is too simple in that field. The vim's tutorial is all about editing (obviously), but it gives a lot of hints and keybinds to move/edit faster or associate keys with actions. There are some keybinds in emacs that I discovered almost by accident, same with some commands which names are a bit tricky. >How about getting new users in the first place? Ergus is right that >Emacs is not the default editor --- I always have to explicitly install >it and it always annoys me that it isn't installed by default for any of >Centos, Debian, Gentoo, Fedora. Ubuntu and arch probably don't have a >good default, either. Ubuntu has vim, nano, ed and all the others, but nor emacs. Arch on the other hand has nothing by default, but manjaro also has vim in all it's flavors. >Instead, you always need to guess which editor >might be installed unless you installed one, and that is usually at >least vi, which I don't get along with. > >I wouldn't know how to sway who ever decides what is being installed by >default in any of these distributions to make Emacs a default. One >reason for it not to be the default may be that it makes for somewhat >large packages maybe. It is questionable if that should still be a >concern nowadays. > I am relatively new in this, but in general if we ask to the people who maintains those distributions it will be not a big issue to include emacs in the defaults packages in the future, the restrictions came from the times when they where restricted to 700Mb for the distros. But I think that we must make some changes for the first impression first. Talking to gnome, kde or the other is something doable too. Vim for example provides a vimrc personalized per distributions to integrate itself better in the environment. >Imagine that, it may even be the only reason. And it remains that way >only because nobody thought about it yet. > Probably that's it. But we could change that with a couple of arguments and emails. This is also an indication that most of the maintainers in these projects are using vim (or something else) and not emacs.