From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Amit Ramon Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Issues with quail.el Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 20:12:19 +0300 Message-ID: <20180512171219.gwodvi5fvdrb72q4@isis.luna> References: <20180505115357.daekqzkpg3565ztj@isis.luna> <878t8tcy8o.fsf@md5i.com> <20180510141234.tpj4vagod6bejmta@isis.luna> <8736yx4ilm.fsf@md5i.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1526145078 10480 195.159.176.226 (12 May 2018 17:11:18 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 17:11:18 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat May 12 19:11:14 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fHY38-0002eA-CE for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 12 May 2018 19:11:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:58050 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fHY5F-0004Of-AL for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 12 May 2018 13:13:25 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:41644) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fHY4Q-0004Eb-Lk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 May 2018 13:12:35 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fHY4N-0003MH-GS for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 May 2018 13:12:34 -0400 Original-Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:57753) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fHY4N-0003M4-3Q for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 12 May 2018 13:12:31 -0400 Original-Received: from cotinga.riseup.net (cotinga-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.164]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA2A01A01A9 for ; Sat, 12 May 2018 10:12:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1526145149; bh=2m5kAAK7PqCtcIzt31xVaLVCAuNP+wQhRcwnpwZG074=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=aL13JgQgywOaOPRf8p84EazxguQmaq4i4kn330fFAypiL4ScNawwC2teSkikqYD5m A6b8b08/4rHAf+qv+Ont6DGtSBGLvWvwbr8x0vhdeAgJ6z+fNEOPcDymZDy6LAR3mu TXo9ZHCc+YnDd1XGC+kJpYTW2wl3KmGUiQv4ak+o= X-Riseup-User-ID: 87FE915B290093D26C140FD5C0EFBBF4C7D944DFD07EB221F3E4A2A6D289FDC9 Original-Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cotinga.riseup.net with ESMTPSA id 754ECA9F86 for ; Sat, 12 May 2018 10:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8736yx4ilm.fsf@md5i.com> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 198.252.153.129 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:225270 Archived-At: Hi, Michael Welsh Duggan [2018-05-12 00:13 -0400]: >> >> Note, for example, the location of the "Y" and "Z", and the two keys >> right of the "L". This layout is the standard for a Hebrew keyboard >> layout (the Israeli standard, at least), and this is what a Hebrew >> writer would expect when Hebrew input method is set. (you can get it >> simply if you don't change your keyboard layout -- assuming it is the >> standard one -- and then set input method to Hebrew, and do C-h I.) >> >> The point is that *there are no problems with actual typing* -- you >> press Shift with the key that has the "Z" in your drawing (to remove >> any possible confusion, this is the key that is right below 6 and 7 >> and on the center between them), and you'll get "Y". > >Strangely, though, that is not what I experience. Here are the >unshifted keys for me, atari-german, hebrew input mode: > > =E2=80=8E=E2=80=AA+1234567890.(\ > =E2=80=AD=D7=B3=D7=A7=D7=A8=D7=90=D7=96=D7=95=D7=9F=D7=9D=D7=A4][ > =E2=80=AD=D7=A9=D7=93=D7=92=D7=9B=D7=A2=D7=99=D7=97=D7=9C=D7=9A>=3D > =E2=80=AD=D7=98=D7=A1=D7=91=D7=94=D7=A0=D7=9E=D7=A6=D7=AA=D7=A5& > >and the shifted ones: > > \!@;$%~^*)?[| > QWERTZUIOP}{ > ASDFGHJKL<@ > YXCVBNM><_ > >There are a few that don't match, but the Y and Z are not two of them. >This is not the case for you? This is what you actually get when typing, right? This is also the case for me, but perhaps I didn't explain the problem clearly enough. Just to make sure - I assume your physical keyboard is a standard English (or at least very similar)? (i.e., it is not a real, physical, atari-german keyboard.) Also, before going on I suggest that we adopt some "naming conventions" for keyboard keys, to make communication easier. I'll use the convention described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_9995#ISO/IEC_9995-1 It is similar to the way used for X Window keyboard maps. So, for example, the row under the numbers is row D, and the keys are numbered D1, D2 and so on from left to right, where "q" is on D1, "w" is on D2 and so on. Lets first do a simple test. When Hebrew input method is active, you press Shift-D6 and you get "Z" (per your result above). If you now deactivate the input method ("toggle-input-method", bound by default to C-\) and press D6 with and without Shift, do you get "y" and "Y"? If so, then the "strangeness" is due to the fact that the physical keyboard is not really atari-german -- if the keyboard was atari-german, D6 in the test would print "z" and "Z". Emacs receives just characters, it has no idea about the actual physical keys that are pressed -- this is why we define for quail the keyboard layout. It enables Emacs to "compute" the physical key that was pressed by comparing the active keyboard layout with the standard one. We can "emulate" an atari-german real keyboard by pressing B1 when we really mean D6, and vice versa. Then Emacs will receive "z" for (emulated) "D6" and "y" for (emulated) "B1". Then we should swap the Z and Y in your typing results. I hope I managed to clear this out this time, although I'm not sure how much I succeeded in this. Best, --- Amit