From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Amit Ramon Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Issues with quail.el Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 22:53:18 +0300 Message-ID: <20180508195318.kalsqerdgdgbuwu5@isis.luna> References: <20180505115357.daekqzkpg3565ztj@isis.luna> <83wowfp8gj.fsf@gnu.org> <20180508084140.ao5rwz7lupl3pyly@isis.luna> <83o9hqoy55.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1525809108 18065 195.159.176.226 (8 May 2018 19:51:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 19:51:48 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue May 08 21:51:44 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fG8eE-0004ab-Qq for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 May 2018 21:51:43 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53100 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fG8gL-0005SZ-Ot for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 08 May 2018 15:53:53 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:45722) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fG8gA-0005SC-J7 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 May 2018 15:53:43 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fG8g6-0007ST-1r for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 May 2018 15:53:42 -0400 Original-Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]:50151) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fG8g5-0007Qj-M2 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 08 May 2018 15:53:37 -0400 Original-Received: from piha.riseup.net (piha-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.163]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 490801A0AD2 for ; Tue, 8 May 2018 12:53:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1525809216; bh=Prk5th4nClM0Pozw8EQrfOpgfBy6IyZRgyvBUoRjV/w=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=FytbqM2UqNu1xk4cC4uya/Trteab4Q+TXY0jnpgldJIUsXfBjuantnDgr07iSSF5Z q24TB0baIJ8ipKTcsM0fFgwdHkDfRKC1LDJAYy3hrSd41zlxheDcd5QXfoxXHFfa6U DLZ2rD13kCkSv0g/mZVlv8yFSVabv10oxJqdHSXI= X-Riseup-User-ID: 97C9CBDF620CFEC53BBC1B803D431C46A53AA0A1D35D6D01DB13ED4FC3C4D204 Original-Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by piha.riseup.net with ESMTPSA id B577F25600 for ; Tue, 8 May 2018 12:53:30 -0700 (PDT) Mail-Followup-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <83o9hqoy55.fsf@gnu.org> X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 198.252.153.129 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:225159 Archived-At: Hi Eli, Eli Zaretskii [2018-05-08 20:28 +0300]: >> Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 11:41:40 +0300 >> From: Amit Ramon >> >> Eli Zaretskii [2018-05-07 22:33 +0300]: >> >> > >> >I'm no expert on this, but does the fact that Dvorak keyboards need >> >special input methods tell anything useful for your use case? >> >> Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I've been using Dvorak keyboard layout >> (defined at X level, physical keyboard is standard one) with Hebrew >> input method for quite many years, and as for typing, i.e. inputting >> Hebrew characters, everything works just fine. Dvorak keyboard doesn't >> need special input method - AFAIK quail is designed to work with any >> keyboard layout - you just have to tell quail about it. >> >> The problems I'm talking about are "second order" - they are related to >> functions that display information about input methods and keyboard >> layouts. > >My point was that maybe the "second-order" problems you bumped into do >need something special like Dvorak input methods do. No, this is not what I think. There are two things that one should be able to set independently - input method and keyboard layout. One should be able to use her favorite (or available) keyboard layout, whether it is a physical keyboard or a layout defined in code (e.g., X window keyboard layout), and this would usually be the 'constant' factor. Then, inside Emacs, one should be able to choose different input methods according to her needs. As far as I can tell from my own experience and from investigating the code (quail.el), this is how Emacs is designed to work. > >And we do have special input methods for Dvorak keyboard layouts, >AFAIK: e.g., see programmer-dvorak and English-dvorak. These input methods are for someone who's (physical) keyboard has the standard layout, but who wish to use (in Emacs) a Dvorak layout. It's not the situation I described. (also, I just looked at the English-dvorak input method, and it also has some issues, or perhaps features... more things to think about) >I'm afraid all the experts on this matter are quite silent for several >years. But maybe someone will chime in... Lets hope so... In the meantime I'll try to continue my investigation, as my time will permit. If things are still not clear enough and you would like me to try and write a more coherent and detailed description of the way I see these issues let me know. Best, Amit P.s. Eli, I'm receiving your replies twice, I guess it is because you send them to the list but also cc me directly. Unless this is intentional for a reason that I'm missing, I think it would be best to send them only to the list.