From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: `message' with quotes [was: bug#23425: `message' wrongly corrupts ' to curly quote] Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 17:49:43 +0000 Message-ID: <20170608174943.GB2662@acm.fritz.box> References: <20170605162737.GA30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170605203753.GB30946@acm.fritz.box> <20170607191344.GB2430@acm.fritz.box> <966db090-4aa1-231c-ef5a-370ece8905d1@gmail.com> <20170607203334.GD2430@acm.fritz.box> <6f040ef3-1b41-4279-b5e5-0e84a299d440@default> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1496944295 30975 195.159.176.226 (8 Jun 2017 17:51:35 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2017 17:51:35 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Cl=E9ment?= Pit-Claudel , Paul Eggert , emacs-devel To: Drew Adams Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Jun 08 19:51:26 2017 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1dJ1ag-0007ZL-Li for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 19:51:26 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50873 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dJ1al-0001Ca-Tg for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 13:51:31 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59811) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dJ1a9-0001CQ-Mw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 13:50:59 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dJ1a5-0008GJ-EO for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 13:50:53 -0400 Original-Received: from ocolin.muc.de ([193.149.48.4]:61061 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with smtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1dJ1a5-0008G8-6t for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 13:50:49 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 51171 invoked by uid 3782); 8 Jun 2017 17:50:47 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C6D7E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.109.126]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2017 19:50:46 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 2798 invoked by uid 1000); 8 Jun 2017 17:49:43 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <6f040ef3-1b41-4279-b5e5-0e84a299d440@default> X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 9.x [fuzzy] X-Received-From: 193.149.48.4 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:215523 Archived-At: Hello, Drew. On Wed, Jun 07, 2017 at 15:05:51 -0700, Drew Adams wrote: > `text-quoting-style' controls this (at least in Emacs 25). > So at least you can bind that to `grave' around any code > that uses `message', to get back the sane, pre-Emacs 25 > behavior. > Given that, is there any reason for Alan's proposed new > format escapes to to tell Emacs: "Hands off my quotes!"? Being accurate, these sequences tell Emacs "please translate to the user's preferred version of quotes". > Of course, you should not HAVE to do that. That should > be the _default_ behavior: no crazy quote translation. Indeed. > `electric-quote-mode' is DISabled by default. We got one > thing right! > Why is it that the crazy quote translation for help and > `message' happens by default, and you have to jump through > a nearly secret hoop to get back the sane behavior? > That makes no sense. It's an incompatible change that > affects all older code as well. > The default for `text-quoting-style' should be the > misleadingly named `grave' behavior, i.e., preserve the > long-established behavior of just leaving ` and ' alone. Yes. It should also leave literal curly quotes untouched (I believe it does this). > Instead, it is a value that gives you curly quotes when > available. That behavior should not be the default (and > it really should have a value such as `prefer-curly', not > `nil'). > Then, anyone wanting to be adventurous or what s?he > considers "modern" could always bind it to `prefer-curly' > or whatever, to get today's misguided default behavior, > or to `curve' to always get translation-to-curly. > This one we got backwards. > It's not too late to change the default behavior of > `text-quoting-style'. (But it is probably too late > to change the meaning of `nil' for it.) Just make > the initial value `grave', not `nil'. > It's also a mistake to (in effect) hide this variable > from ordinary users, instead of making it easy for them > to express their preferences in this regard. This is a thing which reinforces the impression that curly quotes were foisted surreptitiously on users. The normal Emacs way is to make such things configurable in a customisable option. > This is what the Elisp manual says about it (it is not in the Emacs > manual at all): > This variable can be used by experts on platforms that > have problems with curved quotes. As it is not intended > for casual use, it is not a user option. Yes. How about _users_ who have problems with curved quotes? > That couldn't be more misguided. Experts? I don't see any need for particular expertise to use this variable. > Only platforms that have "problems with curved quotes"? Not for casual > use? It's a self-styled "style" variable, but it's not for you or me. > Sheesh. Why? What happened to the interests of individual users? Indeed. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).