From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Unbalanced change hooks (part 2) [Documentation fix still remaining] Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 19:14:43 +0000 Message-ID: <20160830191443.GH6672@acm.fritz.box> References: <5857ab7e-e85c-c6ae-ba1a-b1337ae57f2c@dancol.org> <83fupmm9ul.fsf@gnu.org> <67e1e007-c944-b91e-6c4b-b06b51beddc1@dancol.org> <20160830180139.GC6672@acm.fritz.box> <0d2edb1c-8b51-8114-d121-386322b1a1f6@dancol.org> <20160830183009.GE6672@acm.fritz.box> <20160830184749.GF6672@acm.fritz.box> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1472584561 23810 195.159.176.226 (30 Aug 2016 19:16:01 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 19:16:01 +0000 (UTC) User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.24 (2015-08-30) Cc: monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Daniel Colascione Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Aug 30 21:15:57 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1beoVo-0005m0-Nb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2016 21:15:56 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:50873 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1beoVm-0007UN-BD for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2016 15:15:54 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53537) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1beoV9-0007TL-JU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2016 15:15:16 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1beoV5-0001AT-CD for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2016 15:15:15 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:36417) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1beoV5-00018y-2m for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Aug 2016 15:15:11 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 43504 invoked by uid 3782); 30 Aug 2016 19:15:09 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p548C605C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.140.96.92]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 30 Aug 2016 21:15:07 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 7398 invoked by uid 1000); 30 Aug 2016 19:14:43 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 9.x X-Received-From: 193.149.48.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:207000 Archived-At: Hello, Daniel. On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 11:55:41AM -0700, Daniel Colascione wrote: > On August 30, 2016 11:47:49 AM PDT, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > >Do you want to prevent future hackers from using b-c-f and a-c-f > >together the way we do? > Yes, because the approach we use today is broken and there's little > hope in fixing it. There is software that cannot be written in any reasonable fashion without the technique under discussion. I suspect, even if I don't know for sure, that CC Mode comes into that category. Any lisp program which requires full details of a change cannot be reasonably written without the technique. Documenting, falsely, that it doesn't work restricts the set of what can be written for Emacs. > The language in the documentation doesn't change what Emacs does. I > don't understand what's so hard to see. You want to lead developers > into writing code against an Emacs that doesn't exist. No, I quite clearly and accurately described the Emacs that does exist: The technique works almost always, but you have to detect and handle exceptions carefully, something that can be easily done. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).