From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] master 9ffb6ce 5/5: Quoting fixes in lisp/international and lisp/leim Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 13:22:28 +0000 Message-ID: <20150904132228.GA2991@acm.fritz.box> References: <877foas9jh.fsf@gmail.com> <20150901190014.GB1997@acm.fritz.box> <20150902100252.GC2544@acm.fritz.box> <55E724AA.30301@cs.ucla.edu> <20150902172345.GF2544@acm.fritz.box> <55E7749D.1030801@cs.ucla.edu> <20150903122209.GA2336@acm.fritz.box> <55E85F85.1060701@cs.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1441372911 9128 80.91.229.3 (4 Sep 2015 13:21:51 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2015 13:21:51 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 04 15:21:42 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXqw2-0001am-37 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2015 15:21:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59076 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXqw1-0008EW-Ut for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:21:41 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:56862) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXqvm-0008EF-Da for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:21:27 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXqvj-0002Iy-4j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:21:26 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:43176) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZXqvi-0002IP-RH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 04 Sep 2015 09:21:23 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 41325 invoked by uid 3782); 4 Sep 2015 13:21:20 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p5B1476D3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [91.20.118.211]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Fri, 04 Sep 2015 15:21:20 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 5236 invoked by uid 1000); 4 Sep 2015 13:22:28 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <55E85F85.1060701@cs.ucla.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 9.x X-Received-From: 193.149.48.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:189589 Archived-At: Hello, Paul. On Thu, Sep 03, 2015 at 07:56:05AM -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > the original scenario had nothing to do with > > `text-quoting-style'. > There seemed little point to having two variables to control text quoting > behavior, one for initial inference of display quoting and one for translation > of help strings and diagnostics. So I used the same variable for all three. At the initial setup, there aren't yet configuration variables, are there? .emacs hasn't yet been read. > > You've cut so much context > To help move things forward, here's a complete copy of the message I replied to, > along with a copy of my reply inserted at the appropriate spot, so that you can > see the complete context. Thanks for that. Yesterday wasn't a good day. > > Alan Mackenzie wrote: > >> On Wed, Sep 02, 2015 at 09:32:42AM -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > >>> Alan Mackenzie wrote: > >>>> Using my standard font, lat1-16, the curly quotes use the same glyphs as > >>>> ` and ', hence are visibly indistinguishable from them. > >>> That's no longer true as of yesterday's master commit > >>> 1a3518e7c361a9ceaa017c1334a83d14e0651a4e. > >> I'm afraid it is still true. After doing a C-h f c-mode, apparent > >> quotes were in the buffer. Checking them with C-u C-x =, they were > >> indeed curly quotes, but were displayed the same as ASCII quotes. I've just updated my git-master Emacs again, and the situation still holds: With emacs -Q, C-h f c-mode displays a buffer containing curly quotes, these curly quotes being visibly indistinguishable from ASCII quotes. In particular, I've not seen any shadowed quotes on my screen no matter what I've done. > > After fooling around with it on my Linux console, I came up with a > > scenario that had the behavior you describe. In this scenario I set > > the LC_ALL environment variable to en_US.UTF-8 even though the Linux > > console could display only a few non-ASCII characters (so in some > > sense this is a misconfiguration). And I put (setq > > text-quoting-style 'grave) into my ~/.emacs file, indicating that I > > wanted traditional ASCII quoting. After I execute M-: (setq text-quoting-style 'grave), my next C-h f does indeed use ASCII quotes. > > Emacs didn't look at the text-quoting-style setting when configuring > > the display table at startup, which seems wrong, so I patched master > > to fix that. Please do a git pull and give it a try. Done. See above. But isn't startup done before processing .emacs? > > If it still doesn't work for you, please send the output of the shell > > command ‘locale’ just before invoking Emacs, and the output of the > > command ‘echo $TERM’, and a copy of the Lisp code that sets > > text-quoting-style in your ~/.emacs file. Thanks. Just for completeness's sake, I have $TERM=linux, no LC_.. variable is set, and I don't yet have `text-quoting-style' in my .emacs, but will probably write (setq text-quoting-style 'grave) into it at some stage. > >>> On a terminal that cannot display curved quotes, ... Incidentally, I just tried running Emacs under X Windows, and there I found the two curly quotes visibly indistinguishable from each other, except with a lot of effort, and they were both indistinguishable from the ASCII apostrophe, unless there was one nearby on the screen to compare with. > >> Currently, my terminal is not such a one. It _can_ display curly > >> quotes, but only identically to ASCII quotes. `char-displayable-p' > >> returns 'unicode for them. `char-displayable-p' isn't very useful here. It does not check whether a glyph is assigned to a character code, and I don't even think Linux offers a suitable interface for this. > >> The issue is not so much whether a terminal can display curly quotes, > >> rather it's whether a user wants them to be used or not. > >>> .... Emacs master now uses different glyphs for the quotes’ ASCII > >>> replacements, because the replacements are shadowed. The shadowed > >>> glyphs are easily distinguishable on my Linux console. Users > >>> shouldn’t need to configure Emacs specially, or their Linux console > >>> specially, to get this behavior. So this objection no longer applies. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).