From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: text-quoting-style Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 12:47:56 +0000 Message-ID: <20150901124756.GB2362@acm.fritz.box> References: <20150828172501.GB4882@acm.fritz.box> <20150829155959.GA20484@acm.fritz.box> <20150830131613.GA2724@acm.fritz.box> <55E3F447.4050005@cs.ucla.edu> <20150831201343.GB2280@acm.fritz.box> <55E4C724.3060108@cs.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1441111633 20616 80.91.229.3 (1 Sep 2015 12:47:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 12:47:13 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Stefan Monnier , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Sep 01 14:47:03 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZWkxp-0003oG-Ei for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 14:47:01 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53838 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZWkxo-0002wh-LG for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 08:47:00 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:50603) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZWkxk-0002w1-Fu for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 08:46:57 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZWkxe-0004E5-NH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 08:46:56 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:53899) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZWkxe-0004Dx-DV for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 08:46:50 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 96523 invoked by uid 3782); 1 Sep 2015 12:46:49 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p579E99BB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [87.158.153.187]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Tue, 01 Sep 2015 14:46:48 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 3142 invoked by uid 1000); 1 Sep 2015 12:47:56 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <55E4C724.3060108@cs.ucla.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 9.x X-Received-From: 193.149.48.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:189382 Archived-At: Hello, Paul. On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 02:29:08PM -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 08/31/2015 01:13 PM, Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 11:29:27PM -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > >> (1) is fixed by using display tables to display curved quotes in grave style. > >> (This has already been implemented and no change should be needed here.) > > No good. Having different characters displayed from what's in the > > buffer is a recipe for confusion, frustration, and anger. > It's what Emacs does now, and it works well enough. And the basic idea > isn't a new principle: Emacs has done it for decades for many ASCII > characters, e.g., HT. So it is not a problem in practice. It will be a problem in practice. It will by lying about what character in the buffer the glyph on the screen represents. It will be ambiguous: seeing a ' on the screen leaves it doubtful what the corresponding character in the buffer is. Current uses of display tables aren't used to confuse users. > >> (2) is fixed by enabling character-fold-search. This isn't the default yet, due > >> to a few problems with its implementation, but these should be fixable. > > No it isn't. character-fold-search violates the KISS principle, > > certainly for me personally. > We could implement it so that it would be quite simple: you search for > what you see. That should be good enough. Providing what I see is what is there, yes. > > Problem 3 doesn't concern me personally > Then let's make it lower priority. But don't forget people who will be cutting and pasting with tools like gpm. > >> This alternative would be superior to what we have now, because it would also > >> work for info files (which aren't handled by Emacs's current scheme). > > What's wrong with `text-quoting-style'? > As I wrote, text-quoting-style doesn't do anything for info files, or > for other text files containing curved quotes. That's an argument for an additional facility for Info, not one for getting rid of `text-quoting-style', unless the replacement can do the job of `text-quoting-style'. > The approach I'm proposing would work for these other cases too, and > it would avoid the heavy use of translation that Stefan has expressed > concern about. I'm not quite up to date with the status of these things. But I'll be quite happy if the following hold: (i) Quotes, apostrophes, and so on, in all our sources will continue to be ASCII. (ii) Emacs can be configured such that the quotes in help buffers, messages, etc. are ASCII quotes. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).