From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: [Emacs-diffs] master 9ce1d38: Use curved quotes in core elisp diagnostics Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 23:15:29 +0000 Message-ID: <20150818231529.GG2262@acm.fritz.box> References: <20150817121513.GA2634@acm.fritz.box> <55D21191.8070202@cs.ucla.edu> <20150817173551.GB2634@acm.fritz.box> <55D29EA6.2020009@cs.ucla.edu> <20150818103921.GA2262@acm.fritz.box> <55D36132.1020900@cs.ucla.edu> <20150818171715.GD2262@acm.fritz.box> <55D3869E.30302@cs.ucla.edu> <20150818204211.GF2262@acm.fritz.box> <55D3A641.7040409@cs.ucla.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1439939694 27096 80.91.229.3 (18 Aug 2015 23:14:54 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2015 23:14:54 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Paul Eggert Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Aug 19 01:14:46 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZRq5c-0006ic-TI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 01:14:45 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59927 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZRq5X-0003vu-7X for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 19:14:39 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:40322) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZRq5S-0003sj-NH for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 19:14:35 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZRq5P-0003Tx-FX for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 19:14:34 -0400 Original-Received: from mail.muc.de ([193.149.48.3]:41128) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZRq5P-0003Ta-6U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 18 Aug 2015 19:14:31 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 86731 invoked by uid 3782); 18 Aug 2015 23:14:30 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p548A50C2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [84.138.80.194]) by colin.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 19 Aug 2015 01:14:29 +0200 Original-Received: (qmail 16742 invoked by uid 1000); 18 Aug 2015 23:15:29 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <55D3A641.7040409@cs.ucla.edu> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.12 (Macallan) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 9.x X-Received-From: 193.149.48.3 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:188915 Archived-At: Hello, Paul. On Tue, Aug 18, 2015 at 02:40:17PM -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > Alan Mackenzie wrote: > > Nobody having to type "Ó" on a Spanish keyboard layout > > would have any trouble. > Spanish keyboards typically do not have "Ó", so your restrictive definition of > "working" would say that "Ó" is trouble even on a Spanish keyboard. I think you know full well what I mean by "working character", and that my definition wasn't meant to be water tight in the way you're now trying to pick holes in. Spanish keyboards DO have "Ó", for any sensible value of "have". > > On the contrary, holding down while typing on the numeric > > keypad, successively 2, 0, 1, 8 or 2, 0, 1, 9 is laborious indeed, even > > assuming that these codes have been retained in memory. For that is > > what a user with a normal keyboard layout, outside of Emacs, will be > > forced to do. > The criterion cannot be that any text editor in any configuration should be able > to edit Emacs source code with no trouble. That hasn't ever been true. I think it pretty much has been, certainly for all but a few special files, up until the last few days. > All that's needed is that people be able to edit their source code in > Emacs, with occasional use by other text editors, when PROPERLY > CONFIGURED. All MODERN text editors can HANDLE UTF-8 text files when > PROPERLY CONFIGURED, so this is not a problem. I just now checked > 'less' and 'vim', for example, and they WORK FINE with UTF-8 curved > quotes even on the Linux console if it's PROPERLY CONFIGURED. Paul, that paragraph is pretty much content free, without having some good idea of what that vague bits (I've capitalised them) mean. I think you're agreeing with me that to work with curly quotes using these tools, you're going to be having to enter their hex codes, as described above. In the file versions without the curlies, this simply didn't arise. Putting the curly quotes into our source files have made them more difficult to work with. This is a Bad Thing. -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).