From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jorgen Schaefer Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: More metaproblem Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 23:01:31 +0100 Message-ID: <20141204230131.5eea855f@forcix> References: <20141203142859.24393.98673@vcs.savannah.gnu.org> <20141203192721.GE12748@thyrsus.com> <547F6774.50700@cs.ucla.edu> <838uio5vjw.fsf@gnu.org> <20141203211447.GB15111@thyrsus.com> <871toge5zw.fsf@floss.red-bean.com> <83388v6hsq.fsf@gnu.org> <87egsftgd5.fsf@ktab.red-bean.com> <83egsf3yci.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1417730528 11876 80.91.229.3 (4 Dec 2014 22:02:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2014 22:02:08 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Karl Fogel , esr@thyrsus.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 04 23:02:03 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1XweTH-00051W-4G for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2014 23:01:59 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47931 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XweTG-0004B7-Ov for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2014 17:01:58 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:47518) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XweT9-0004Ay-J6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2014 17:01:56 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XweT4-0005b5-In for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 04 Dec 2014 17:01:51 -0500 Original-Received: from loki.jorgenschaefer.de ([87.230.15.51]:52723) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1XweSu-0005Yw-6g; Thu, 04 Dec 2014 17:01:36 -0500 Original-Received: by loki.jorgenschaefer.de (Postfix, from userid 998) id DF570200D1F; Thu, 4 Dec 2014 23:01:33 +0100 (CET) Original-Received: from forcix (port-33910.pppoe.wtnet.de [46.59.183.76]) by loki.jorgenschaefer.de (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E764E200D1C; Thu, 4 Dec 2014 23:01:32 +0100 (CET) In-Reply-To: <83egsf3yci.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.11.1 (GTK+ 2.24.25; i586-pc-linux-gnu) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 87.230.15.51 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:178859 Archived-At: On Thu, 04 Dec 2014 23:21:33 +0200 Eli Zaretskii wrote: > > It's precisely that I don't have time to be more active than I am, > > that leads me to want the project's development procedures to be > > more conducive to developers like me -- there are many of them out > > there. >=20 > Then you don't have the right to whine about how the project is being > managed. Do you realize how incredibly hostile this comes across as? As a possible contributor, reading this, how inclined do you think this makes me to bring up possible stumbling blocks I might have when trying to contribute to Emacs? And let me tell you, my experience with *trying* to contribute to Emacs so far mainly has left me with the impression that I might be able to contribute to Emacs *despite*, not *because*, of the best efforts of "the management". But only if I work really hard for it. Of course, I should not bring this up, because my time is limited and I am only interested in some minor contributions, so my opinion is irrelevant, and I "don't have the right to whine" about this, right? On this topic, I can highly recommend Brenda Lynne Chawner's thesis _Factors Influencing Participant Satisfaction with Free/Libre and Open Source Software Projects._[1] Section 9.3 includes this rather hands-on list of suggestions (p. 213): | - ensure that the project=E2=80=99s =E2=80=98About=E2=80=99 page and docu= mentation include | information about what types of contributions are most needed, and | how to contribute | - acknowledge and celebrate contributions, so that people who do | contribute feel appreciated and motivated to continue; | - monitor questions in the project=E2=80=99s email discussion list and/or | forums, particularly those from newcomers, to ensure that they are | answered; | - provide information to the project=E2=80=99s community about the projec= t=E2=80=99s | future development, perhaps in the form of a =E2=80=98road map=E2=80=99= that lists | the planned changes and enhancements; | - ensure that documentation is up-to-date, and that aspects of the | software that may be perceived as complex are explained clearly; | and | - find out what barriers participants encounter when making a | contribution to the project, and take steps to minimise or | eliminate them. It is probably not obvious to you, but Emacs fails at every single one of those to various degrees. And only somewhat related, for you especially, Eli, I can highly recommend John E. Vincent's essay on _Software Empathy_.[2] (As a balancing point, I should add that it's not all bleak. I have received very kind and helpful responses to some questions on this list, and especially - but not only - Stefan can be very friendly and supportive.) Regards, Jorgen [1] http://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/bitstream/handle/10063/1710/thesis.pdf?seq= uence=3D4 Summary at http://opensource.com/business/14/8/study-participant-satisfaction-open-sou= rce-projects [2] http://blog.lusis.org/blog/2014/10/19/software-empathy/