* Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
@ 2012-02-23 17:48 Glenn Morris
2012-02-23 17:50 ` Deniz Dogan
` (9 more replies)
0 siblings, 10 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Glenn Morris @ 2012-02-23 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
A critical question. What is the standard form in GNU manuals for using
the possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"?
This is one of Emacs's most important features.
or
This is one of Emacs' most important features.
Currently there are ~ 46 instances of the former in the manuals, and 63 of
the latter. I favour the former.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 17:48 Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s" Glenn Morris
@ 2012-02-23 17:50 ` Deniz Dogan
2012-02-23 22:28 ` James Cloos
2012-02-24 5:10 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2012-02-23 17:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
` (8 subsequent siblings)
9 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Deniz Dogan @ 2012-02-23 17:50 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
On 2012-02-23 18:48, Glenn Morris wrote:
>
> A critical question. What is the standard form in GNU manuals for using
> the possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"?
>
> This is one of Emacs's most important features.
>
> or
>
> This is one of Emacs' most important features.
>
> Currently there are ~ 46 instances of the former in the manuals, and 63 of
> the latter. I favour the former.
>
What does grammar say? Is it a corner-case? Does it differ depending
on locale?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 17:48 Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s" Glenn Morris
2012-02-23 17:50 ` Deniz Dogan
@ 2012-02-23 17:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-02-23 18:07 ` Drew Adams
` (7 subsequent siblings)
9 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2012-02-23 17:58 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel
> This is one of Emacs's most important features.
>
> or
>
> This is one of Emacs' most important features.
>
> Currently there are ~ 46 instances of the former in the manuals, and 63 of
> the latter. I favour the former.
Me too.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* RE: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 17:48 Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s" Glenn Morris
2012-02-23 17:50 ` Deniz Dogan
2012-02-23 17:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2012-02-23 18:07 ` Drew Adams
2012-02-23 18:15 ` Jambunathan K
2012-02-23 18:07 ` Jambunathan K
` (6 subsequent siblings)
9 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2012-02-23 18:07 UTC (permalink / raw
To: 'Glenn Morris', emacs-devel
> A critical question. What is the standard form in GNU manuals
> for using the possessive apostrophe with singular nouns
> ending in "s"?
>
> This is one of Emacs's most important features.
> or
> This is one of Emacs' most important features.
>
> Currently there are ~ 46 instances of the former in the
> manuals, and 63 of the latter. I favour the former.
+1 for the former case (.+s's is my preference also).
(Dunno what the GNU standard is for this.)
As for guidance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Singular_nouns_ending_with_an_.22s.22_or
_.22z.22_sound
http://www.grammarmudge.cityslide.com/articles/article/426348/4944.htm
http://www.englishclub.com/esl-articles/possessive-apostrophe.htm
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 17:48 Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s" Glenn Morris
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2012-02-23 18:07 ` Drew Adams
@ 2012-02-23 18:07 ` Jambunathan K
2012-02-23 18:23 ` Jambunathan K
` (5 subsequent siblings)
9 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Jambunathan K @ 2012-02-23 18:07 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel
> This is one of Emacs' most important features.
IIRC, this is what high school grammar books recommend. Don't ask me for
citation.
--
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 18:07 ` Drew Adams
@ 2012-02-23 18:15 ` Jambunathan K
2012-02-23 20:51 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Jambunathan K @ 2012-02-23 18:15 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: emacs-devel
"Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
> +1 for the former case (.+s's is my preference also).
>
> (Dunno what the GNU standard is for this.)
>
> As for guidance:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Singular_nouns_ending_with_an_.22s.22_or
> _.22z.22_sound
It seems the opinion is divided. If I read between the words there, the
editors seem to think that the "Chicago Manual Of Style" is not one
among the respected authorities.
I would rather not be found hissing.
--
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 17:48 Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s" Glenn Morris
` (3 preceding siblings ...)
2012-02-23 18:07 ` Jambunathan K
@ 2012-02-23 18:23 ` Jambunathan K
2012-02-23 18:36 ` Drew Adams
2012-02-23 18:24 ` Paul Eggert
` (4 subsequent siblings)
9 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Jambunathan K @ 2012-02-23 18:23 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel
Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:
> A critical question. What is the standard form in GNU manuals for using
> the possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"?
>
> This is one of Emacs's most important features.
>
> or
>
> This is one of Emacs' most important features.
>
> Currently there are ~ 46 instances of the former in the manuals, and 63 of
> the latter. I favour the former.
If the "subject" is Emacs - It is Emacs'(s) manual right? - then the
above controversy can altogether be avoided by dropping self-references
altogether. Even if there is a need, one can use runtime etc. and still
make herself understood by the reader.
--
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 17:48 Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s" Glenn Morris
` (4 preceding siblings ...)
2012-02-23 18:23 ` Jambunathan K
@ 2012-02-23 18:24 ` Paul Eggert
2012-02-23 18:32 ` Jay Belanger
2012-02-23 18:27 ` Alan Mackenzie
` (3 subsequent siblings)
9 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Paul Eggert @ 2012-02-23 18:24 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel
On 02/23/2012 09:48 AM, Glenn Morris wrote:
> Currently there are ~ 46 instances of the former in the manuals, and 63 of
> the latter. I favour the former.
These days "Emacs's" is preferred by more stylebooks (OUP, MLA, BBC, Economist)
than "Emacs'" (AP, Chicago). The shorter form is still more common for classical
and biblical names ("Socrates'", "Jesus'"), but I don't think anybody would
claim that "Emacs" has been around *that* long. So let's use "Emacs's".
For more, please see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Singular_nouns_ending_with_an_.22s.22_or_.22z.22_sound
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 17:48 Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s" Glenn Morris
` (5 preceding siblings ...)
2012-02-23 18:24 ` Paul Eggert
@ 2012-02-23 18:27 ` Alan Mackenzie
2012-02-23 21:54 ` Stefan Monnier
` (2 subsequent siblings)
9 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Alan Mackenzie @ 2012-02-23 18:27 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel
Hi, Glenn.
On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 12:48:17PM -0500, Glenn Morris wrote:
> A critical question. What is the standard form in GNU manuals for using
> the possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"?
> This is one of Emacs's most important features.
> or
> This is one of Emacs' most important features.
> Currently there are ~ 46 instances of the former in the manuals, and 63 of
> the latter. I favour the former.
Me too. Presumably you use "Morris's" too, when you get to be
possessive.
A good ground for this choice is consistency and logic - if adding "'s"
is the normal method of possessivisation, why depart from it
unnecessarily?
--
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 18:24 ` Paul Eggert
@ 2012-02-23 18:32 ` Jay Belanger
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Jay Belanger @ 2012-02-23 18:32 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel; +Cc: jay.p.belanger
Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu> writes:
> On 02/23/2012 09:48 AM, Glenn Morris wrote:
>> Currently there are ~ 46 instances of the former in the manuals, and 63 of
>> the latter. I favour the former.
>
> These days "Emacs's" is preferred by more stylebooks (OUP, MLA, BBC, Economist)
> than "Emacs'" (AP, Chicago).
According to the wikipedia article, the 16th Edition of Chicago now
recommends "Emacs's" (or rather, no longer recommends "Emacs'").
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* RE: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 18:23 ` Jambunathan K
@ 2012-02-23 18:36 ` Drew Adams
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2012-02-23 18:36 UTC (permalink / raw
To: 'Jambunathan K', 'Glenn Morris'; +Cc: emacs-devel
> If the "subject" is Emacs - It is Emacs'(s) manual right? - then the
> above controversy can altogether be avoided by dropping
> self-references altogether. Even if there is a need, one can use
> runtime etc. and still make herself understood by the reader.
Good point.
In fact, many (most?) technical writing style guidelines call for avoiding such
possessives. It is, I think, increasingly common to see, e.g., "the object
name" instead of "the object's name". (I have no possessive apostrophes in the
doc I write, for instance.)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 18:15 ` Jambunathan K
@ 2012-02-23 20:51 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2012-02-23 21:47 ` chad
2012-02-24 5:15 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
0 siblings, 2 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen @ 2012-02-23 20:51 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:
> It seems the opinion is divided. If I read between the words there, the
> editors seem to think that the "Chicago Manual Of Style" is not one
> among the respected authorities.
I think the reflexive impulse most educated people have these days is
"whatever you do, don't do what's in Chicago". Unless Chicago happens
to have it right by coincidence. Even a stopped clock.
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 20:51 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
@ 2012-02-23 21:47 ` chad
2012-02-24 5:15 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: chad @ 2012-02-23 21:47 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: emacs-devel
On Feb 23, 2012, at 12:51 PM, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> Jambunathan K <kjambunathan@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> It seems the opinion is divided. If I read between the words there, the
>> editors seem to think that the "Chicago Manual Of Style" is not one
>> among the respected authorities.
>
> I think the reflexive impulse most educated people have these days is
> "whatever you do, don't do what's in Chicago". Unless Chicago happens
> to have it right by coincidence. Even a stopped clock.
That's funny, because my wife is a professional editor, taking an editing class for a brush-up/certificate, and the class teaches them to use CMS by default. This class includes working professional editors of various types in newspapers, technical, fiction, and corporate fields, primarily in the US. Maybe the divide is NA/Europen?
I gather that a lot of the "don't use CMS" feedback stems from CMS 12, while version 16 came out last year.
I believe that Emacs's is the recommended formatting, but the recommended style is to avoid that construction most of the time regardless.
Hope that helps,
*Chad
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 17:48 Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s" Glenn Morris
` (6 preceding siblings ...)
2012-02-23 18:27 ` Alan Mackenzie
@ 2012-02-23 21:54 ` Stefan Monnier
2012-02-24 19:10 ` Wolfgang Jenkner
2012-03-01 8:46 ` Miles Bader
9 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Monnier @ 2012-02-23 21:54 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel
> A critical question.
Indeed. Down with inconsistency!
> I favour the former.
I don't favour anything myself, but I do favor Freedom. Let each author
write it the way they like it. Same as with British/American English.
Stefan
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 17:50 ` Deniz Dogan
@ 2012-02-23 22:28 ` James Cloos
2012-02-24 5:10 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: James Cloos @ 2012-02-23 22:28 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
>>>>> "DD" == Deniz Dogan <deniz@dogan.se> writes:
>> This is one of Emacs's most important features.
>>
>> or
>>
>> This is one of Emacs' most important features.
DD> What does grammar say? Is it a corner-case? Does it differ
DD> depending on locale?
In en_US Standard Written English the latter is preferred.
I've heard tell that en_UK disagrees, but that is only hearsay.
-JimC
--
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> OpenPGP: 1024D/ED7DAEA6
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 17:50 ` Deniz Dogan
2012-02-23 22:28 ` James Cloos
@ 2012-02-24 5:10 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
1 sibling, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2012-02-24 5:10 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Deniz Dogan; +Cc: emacs-devel
Deniz Dogan writes:
> What does grammar say? Is it a corner-case? Does it differ depending
> on locale?
Early-to-mid 1900s grammar says without any self-critical doubt
whatsoever that for a singular noun ending in "s" the possessive is
formed by adding "'s".
Before and after grammar says either is OK, with after grammar having
a footnote saying that early-to-mid-1900s grammarians were fascist
usurpers of the people's right to determine their own language, as
evidenced by the usage of before grammar. Before grammar has no
footnotes referring to after grammar, though.
With-tongue-firmly-in-cheeks's-ly y'rs,
P.S. Personally I favor "Emacs's".
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 20:51 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2012-02-23 21:47 ` chad
@ 2012-02-24 5:15 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2012-02-24 11:57 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Stephen J. Turnbull @ 2012-02-24 5:15 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: emacs-devel
Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen writes:
> I think the reflexive impulse most educated people have these days is
> "whatever you do, don't do what's in Chicago".
"Reflexive impulse in an educated person" is an oxymoron.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-24 5:15 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
@ 2012-02-24 11:57 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Thien-Thi Nguyen @ 2012-02-24 11:57 UTC (permalink / raw
To: emacs-devel
() "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org>
() Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:15:44 +0900
"Reflexive impulse in an educated person" is an oxymoron.
Perhaps not if you consider (un-)*education with an even number of ‘un-’,
or the properly odd number of ‘re-’ in their stead. :-/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 17:48 Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s" Glenn Morris
` (7 preceding siblings ...)
2012-02-23 21:54 ` Stefan Monnier
@ 2012-02-24 19:10 ` Wolfgang Jenkner
2012-02-25 12:16 ` Richard Stallman
2012-03-01 8:46 ` Miles Bader
9 siblings, 1 reply; 21+ messages in thread
From: Wolfgang Jenkner @ 2012-02-24 19:10 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel
On Thu, Feb 23 2012, Glenn Morris wrote:
> A critical question. What is the standard form in GNU manuals for using
> the possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"?
>
> This is one of Emacs's most important features.
>
> or
>
> This is one of Emacs' most important features.
Actually, [1] states that the latter form can be used only with
/regular/ nouns ending in "s", but many people use the plural form
"Emacsen", so, in current usage, "Emacs" is not a regular noun.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_genitive
Wolfgang
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-24 19:10 ` Wolfgang Jenkner
@ 2012-02-25 12:16 ` Richard Stallman
0 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2012-02-25 12:16 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Wolfgang Jenkner; +Cc: emacs-devel
Actually, [1] states that the latter form can be used only with
/regular/ nouns ending in "s", but many people use the plural form
"Emacsen", so, in current usage, "Emacs" is not a regular noun.
It's worse than that: "Emacs" is a plural form used as singular.
"Emacs" originally stood for "Editing macros".
--
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
Use free telephony http://directory.fsf.org/category/tel/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
* Re: Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"
2012-02-23 17:48 Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s" Glenn Morris
` (8 preceding siblings ...)
2012-02-24 19:10 ` Wolfgang Jenkner
@ 2012-03-01 8:46 ` Miles Bader
9 siblings, 0 replies; 21+ messages in thread
From: Miles Bader @ 2012-03-01 8:46 UTC (permalink / raw
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: emacs-devel
Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:
> A critical question. What is the standard form in GNU manuals for using
> the possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s"?
> This is one of Emacs's most important features.
> This is one of Emacs' most important features.
What I've always heard (and which seems eminently practical) is that
one should just follow the actual pronunciation, which is pretty easy
for a native-speaker to check. Most things get an explicit "'s" (so
it makes sense for that to be the default if it's unclear), but some
words just sound downright weird that way, so it should be omitted for
them.
[Emacs sounds OK either way to me, but I'd say "Emacs's" should get
the nod...]
-miles
--
"I distrust a research person who is always obviously busy on a task."
--Robert Frosch, VP, GM Research
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 21+ messages in thread
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2012-02-23 17:48 Possessive apostrophe with singular nouns ending in "s" Glenn Morris
2012-02-23 17:50 ` Deniz Dogan
2012-02-23 22:28 ` James Cloos
2012-02-24 5:10 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2012-02-23 17:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2012-02-23 18:07 ` Drew Adams
2012-02-23 18:15 ` Jambunathan K
2012-02-23 20:51 ` Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen
2012-02-23 21:47 ` chad
2012-02-24 5:15 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2012-02-24 11:57 ` Thien-Thi Nguyen
2012-02-23 18:07 ` Jambunathan K
2012-02-23 18:23 ` Jambunathan K
2012-02-23 18:36 ` Drew Adams
2012-02-23 18:24 ` Paul Eggert
2012-02-23 18:32 ` Jay Belanger
2012-02-23 18:27 ` Alan Mackenzie
2012-02-23 21:54 ` Stefan Monnier
2012-02-24 19:10 ` Wolfgang Jenkner
2012-02-25 12:16 ` Richard Stallman
2012-03-01 8:46 ` Miles Bader
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