From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Tassilo Horn Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs learning curve Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 08:09:59 +0200 Message-ID: <201007170809.59479.tassilo@member.fsf.org> References: <4C3B6A8A.80105@gmx.de> <201007162023.32116.tassilo@member.fsf.org> <87zkxrjihf.fsf@mithlond.arda> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1279347016 10829 80.91.229.12 (17 Jul 2010 06:10:16 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 06:10:16 +0000 (UTC) Cc: =?utf-8?q?=C3=93scar_Fuentes?= , Teemu Likonen To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jul 17 08:10:14 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oa0bG-0006PD-7R for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 17 Jul 2010 08:10:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:36502 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Oa0bF-0001Dg-J9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:10:13 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=58034 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Oa0b8-0001Db-7U for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:10:07 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oa0b6-0003PZ-NT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:10:05 -0400 Original-Received: from out1.smtp.messagingengine.com ([66.111.4.25]:55175) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Oa0b6-0003PR-J8 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:10:04 -0400 Original-Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.internal [10.202.2.42]) by gateway1.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE8216EFAF; Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:10:02 -0400 (EDT) Original-Received: from heartbeat2.messagingengine.com ([10.202.2.161]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:10:02 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=messagingengine.com; h=from:to:subject:date:cc:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:message-id; s=smtpout; bh=6ksvOaJ4ocY4Avjm4HueYwLJeJ4=; b=fwMmPXMCmk3ObCu6ejwD2MPWN8wIf2M9MklMgiKuwYoxgrqlkAYI5ookN5/GTrbqblOenQhVq+LoH0iXq2WXw7nY/UTPWg5PCL1kI3+HNYpA2eyVHuBt7vOa3eyDYHEdPqvLLkSdxC1Uxx0gvbf0KMMketYYrzz3xYagI1Zy3D8= X-Sasl-enc: sUa5/JICkepjvvIFq+SRmsqcEZctp9gX9osXUoKd/90u 1279347001 Original-Received: from thinkpad.localnet (dslb-084-061-104-211.pools.arcor-ip.net [84.61.104.211]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 67BD8588BD; Sat, 17 Jul 2010 02:10:01 -0400 (EDT) User-Agent: KMail/1.13.5 (Linux/2.6.35-rc5-git1; KDE/4.4.5; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: <87zkxrjihf.fsf@mithlond.arda> X-Face: `TY6r/ws=N5uqO1E`M=Sups<}n%T[E^o_?MJj< =?utf-8?q?O4j=265ljV6lU=7DcXU7oftH=26/x=5F=7EK=7B=26zv9=7D=0A=09sB=7D5/Ea=5B?= =?utf-8?q?hU=7BCS=23=3F=3F0=3F=3Fn?=@sX+ft]?{(l?, mp"a`u List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:127486 Archived-At: On Friday 16 July 2010 22:10:20 Teemu Likonen wrote: Hi! > Powerful text editor should depend on ergonomics and muscle memory and > make rebinding keys easy (for different keyboard layouts like Dvorak). I think this muscle memory statement is much overstated. It's the main argument why VI is better than emacs. While I think it is true, that the basic editing/searching/navigation commands should be easily accessible (and I think they are in emacs), these ergonomics should never take precedence over consistency and the ease to remember them (which mnemonics facilitate). I use quite a few emacs modes on only a weekly or monthly basis. If the keys of these modes wouldn't be based on mnemonics but ergonomic positions on a QUERTY keyboard, I'd have a hard time using them and `C-h w' would be the most frequently used command. A power-user of these modes has the possibility to rebind the important commands to shorted keys, so she can get them as ergonomic (for her layout) as she feels the need to. Defaults are a different story. And, no matter what I do in emacs, being it programming, writing texts, reading/writing news, or doing spreadsheet calculations, I spend far more time thinking than issuing editing commands. And from the editing command fraction, 99% are self-insert-command which I chose my keyboard layout for and thus they are ergonomic (for me). Even if the "real" editing command bindings would be changed so that I can type them 10 times faster, that wouldn't buy me more than a some tenth of a percent of time I would need to write that program/text/spreadsheet with the current bindings. Most probably, it would rather take me longer, cause the missing mnemonics made me forget some keys and I'd have to look them up again. Bye, Tassilo