From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: delete-selection-mode (was: Put scroll-bar on right by default on UNIX.) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:12:23 +0000 Message-ID: <20100318101223.GB2704@muc.de> References: <87ocitw2dl.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <201003130001.o2D01FFQ003489@godzilla.ics.uci.edu> <87vdd1yqe4.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <87eijjzrkd.fsf_-_@mail.jurta.org> <20100317143519.GB4381@muc.de> <87vdcui6oh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: dough.gmane.org 1268907059 26775 80.91.229.12 (18 Mar 2010 10:10:59 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@dough.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 10:10:59 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Juri Linkov , Chong Yidong , Dan Nicolaescu , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Mar 18 11:10:54 2010 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NsCgj-0001I8-Sb for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:10:50 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35807 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NsCgj-0006g7-7q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 06:10:49 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1NsCae-00019U-W0 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 06:04:33 -0400 Original-Received: from [140.186.70.92] (port=38170 helo=eggs.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1NsCac-00016p-Et for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 06:04:31 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NsCaZ-0005dU-Sc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 06:04:30 -0400 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1]:4455 helo=mail.muc.de) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1NsCaZ-0005cw-IW for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 06:04:27 -0400 Original-Received: (qmail 17368 invoked by uid 3782); 18 Mar 2010 10:04:25 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (pD9E2368B.dip.t-dialin.net [217.226.54.139]) by colin2.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Thu, 18 Mar 2010 11:04:23 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 3473 invoked by uid 1000); 18 Mar 2010 10:12:23 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87vdcui6oh.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.5 (Fettercairn) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: FreeBSD 4.6-4.9 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:122152 Archived-At: Hi, Stephen! On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 01:40:14PM +0900, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Alan Mackenzie writes: > > The answer is to ask them why they want this. C-w is easy to type, > > as is . > I can't speak for "them," but I want DEL to *delete* the region > because *kill-region* is very often *not* what I want. Ie, I do not > want the deleted text on the kill ring. OK, that's an interesting point, but I'm not sure how connected it is to d-s-m. Ideally, one wants a keybinding for `delete-region' (which is already a command), but there aren't any short enough ones free, really; maybe C-M-x, or something like that. I also think that the distinction between kill-region and delete-region would be more confusing than helpful to a beginner. > It's also often useful to me to have the text being replaced on screen > as I begin to type the replacement text, rather than delete and insert > separately. These small differences really matter, a microsecond here, > a half-second there, it starts to add up to a noticably smoother > experience. OK. The penalty for that convenience is having your region explode and disappear when you accidentally type a self-insert character (or arrow key). This might happen if you hit the x before the M in M-x, or something like that. Or, you might regionify a defun with C-M-h for some reason and accidentally lose it. Clearly the convenience benefit dominates for you; the accidental explosion hazard dominates for me (in non-Emacs environments, where I can't disable the (mis)feature). I've no reason to suspect I'm unusual here. It's "obviously" useful to be able to type extra text into an already "existing" region. The region is used for many things other than just being deleted. > > delete-select-mode is such an irritating distraction > In Emacsen without zmacs-regions/transient-mark-mode on, I agree > strongly. In Emacs with t-m-m, I disagree strongly. > Yes, veteran users will find the change in defaults (both t-m-m and > delsel, whether simultaneously or sequentially) an irritating > distraction. There should be a way for veterans to tell Emacs "Read > my lips: No New UI Features", but sadly enough, there isn't. But vets > know how to turn off such annoyances quickly and permanently. Do they? How do we know there aren't lots of "veteran" users who don't really know how to configure the thing? I think we should also distinguish between pure new UI features, and those that actively interfere with established usage. My view is that we should never make something default in Emacs if it's likely to provoke the angry reaction "How do I disable this *!£$ing thing?". delete-select-mode falls into this latter category. So does transient-mark-mode. > > that it should only be enabled for those who really, truly want it. > Which is almost everybody with either no experience or the leisure to > spend a very frustrating 3 days (what it took me to adapt to > zmacs-regions, 15 years ago) to 1 week retraining muscle memory. > t-m-m + delsel is a simple, global improvement as a default *for the > new user*. I think you might be exaggerating a bit for this particular feature. It's of the same order of magnitude as swapping the 'z' and 'y' keys (as one does in moving between English and German keyboard layouts) - it's a slight irritation, not really a big thing. Is there any evidence that delete-select-mode is instrinsically a good thing, disregarding the fact that it has become common? > > Emacs isn't about taking things for granted. It's about efficiency, > > about minimising keystrokes, about not getting in the users' way. > > How about improving the documentation/menu-settings/ whatever so > > that these beginners find what they're looking for? [ .... ] > Why not give them [Emacs newbies] these very efficient patterns that > have proven themselves not only in software for the braindead, but in > daily usage by thousands of Emacs users as well? Where is the proof that d-s-m has proven itself efficient, rather than being mainly an irritation? That's a genuine question, not a rhetorical one. One reason people might have come to Emacs is to escape the (to them) deity-awful key sequences they've been forced to use up to now. It is surely good to offer them an alternative. > > No. We do not want to send Emacs down the slippery slope towards > > lowest common denominator editors. We want to encourage Emacs > > users to use Emacs efficiently, taking advantage of its many > > features. > Of which t-m-m plus delsel is one. I'm only sad that you aren't able > to take advantage of it. :^) Me too! -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).