From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Johan =?iso-8859-1?q?Myr=E9en?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: line-move-visual Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:19:07 +0300 Message-ID: <200907110019.08226.jem@iki.fi> References: <200907092112.21879.jem@iki.fi> <87ws6hupsk.fsf@bzg.ath.cx> <87y6qxkqwo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1247260785 29810 80.91.229.12 (10 Jul 2009 21:19:45 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2009 21:19:45 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: "Stephen J. Turnbull" Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Jul 10 23:19:38 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1MPNVI-0005ns-SX for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 10 Jul 2009 23:19:37 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37926 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MPNVH-0008MI-RI for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:19:35 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MPNVC-0008Kz-6z for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:19:30 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MPNVA-0008Km-Pj for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:19:29 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=55907 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MPNVA-0008Kj-KT for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:19:28 -0400 Original-Received: from mx20.gnu.org ([199.232.41.8]:46330) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MPNVA-0007VM-97 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:19:28 -0400 Original-Received: from nblzone-227-198.nblnetworks.fi ([83.145.227.198] helo=puppy.toomanyhops.net) by mx20.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MPNV0-0007DN-Ud for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:19:19 -0400 Original-Received: from pandora.localnet (unknown [IPv6:2001:14b8:1ff:1:21f:d0ff:fe51:b7f6]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by puppy.toomanyhops.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CCF13205; Sat, 11 Jul 2009 00:22:31 +0300 (EEST) User-Agent: KMail/1.11.4 (Linux/2.6.30-gentoo-r2; KDE/4.2.4; x86_64; ; ) In-Reply-To: <87y6qxkqwo.fsf@uwakimon.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Content-Disposition: inline X-Detected-Operating-System: by mx20.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-Greylist: delayed 97601 seconds by postgrey-1.27 at nadesico; Fri, 10 Jul 2009 17:19:11 EDT X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6, seldom 2.4 (older, 4) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:112322 Archived-At: On Friday 10 July 2009 09:12:23 Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Hey! Not that way! By attracting a New Generation of users who have > never seen the "carriage" that "carriage return" refers to. "What, > were typewriters horse-powered?" ;-) Ok, I seem to have stirred up some conversation here, and at the same time made me appear a grumpy old man. I hope to present more rational arguments in this message. I still haven't quite figured out what the goal here is: (1) to keep the mental model of a buffer containing logical lines, but change the behaviour of C-n when moving within occasional continued lines or (2) to move away from the "lines" model to a "paragraph" model, where there are no logical lines, but Emacs presents the paragraph using visual lines, like a word processor does If (2) is the goal then ok, the behaviour of C-n makes sense. But you should go all the way and change the behaviour of C-a, C-e, C-k and probably a lot of other stuff too. You should also get rid of the continuation marks, and make the lines wrap at a more sensible place than the right edge of the window. Wrapping should also occur at word boundaries. Also note that you can't completely get rid of the lines model: programming language source code files consist of (logical) lines. The above mentioned New Generation users who haven't seen the "carriage" still bang on their Carriage Return keys even in more modern environments than Emacs, like Eclipse or Visual Studio. If (1) is the goal, I don't see how this change makes editing that much more convenient. Continued lines are normally quite rare, and I find movement by visual lines to be both nonintuitive and inconsistent with the behaviour of C- a and C-e. (By the way, if the behaviour of C-e would be changed to respect visual lines, what would it do--move the insertion point _in front_ of the last character of the visual line?) Johan Myreen