From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Eric S. Raymond" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Emacs-devel Digest, Vol 52, Issue 61 Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:55:44 -0400 Organization: Eric Conspiracy Secret Labs Message-ID: <20080607195544.GE1420@thyrsus.com> References: <20080607125159.8A74F9F05B4@grelber.thyrsus.com> <20080607132037.GA21979@thyrsus.com> Reply-To: esr@thyrsus.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1212868596 13795 80.91.229.12 (7 Jun 2008 19:56:36 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 19:56:36 +0000 (UTC) Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Jun 07 21:57:17 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1K54XM-0004yv-M9 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 07 Jun 2008 21:57:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59610 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1K54WZ-0000EF-O5 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 07 Jun 2008 15:56:27 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1K54Vv-0008HK-GU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jun 2008 15:55:47 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1K54Vu-0008GN-Q3 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jun 2008 15:55:46 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=40692 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1K54Vu-0008G9-IU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jun 2008 15:55:46 -0400 Original-Received: from static-71-162-243-5.phlapa.fios.verizon.net ([71.162.243.5]:44523 helo=snark.thyrsus.com) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1K54Vs-00030t-PE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 07 Jun 2008 15:55:45 -0400 Original-Received: by snark.thyrsus.com (Postfix, from userid 23) id 0768D8301EE; Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:55:44 -0400 (EDT) Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-Eric-Conspiracy: There is no conspiracy User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17+20080114 (2008-01-14) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:98613 Archived-At: Eli Zaretskii : > > Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 09:20:37 -0400 > > From: "Eric S. Raymond" > > > > Whoever said expecting builds in CVS to work consistently was > > "hopelessly unrealistic" is simply revealing that the Emacs system > > is broken as designed. > > This is free software: you are welcome to fix whatever you think is > broken. Yeah, like I wouldn't get flamed to fare-thee-well if I shot autotools through the head and replaced it with something like scons -- which is only part of what needs to happen. What we have here is a mess compounded of the limitations of CVS, Makefiles, and configure, with a semi-infinite number of layers of historical cruft layered over all three. The real problem here isn't technical, it's cultural. This crew is way too used to rusty, broken, archaic tools like CVS and the high hassle costs that go with them. Until that changes, fixing the mess will be theoretically conceivable but politically impossible. -- Eric S. Raymond