From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mike Mattie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Transient Mark Mode on by default Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:34:56 -0700 Message-ID: <20080324163456.223e40c7@reforged> References: <87myopnj0l.fsf@stupidchicken.com> <20080324115510.GA1563@muc.de> <001f01c88dee$b7d48430$c2b22382@us.oracle.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Sig_/TUkkOJcZrHRLn+xaSRYEZUj"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=PGP-SHA1 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1206402008 17643 80.91.229.12 (24 Mar 2008 23:40:08 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2008 23:40:08 +0000 (UTC) To: emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 25 00:40:38 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JdwHN-0000sS-0n for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Tue, 25 Mar 2008 00:40:37 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JdwGl-0003ZZ-RP for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:39:59 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JdwFm-0002jW-HK for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:38:58 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JdwFl-0002il-R6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:38:57 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JdwFl-0002iW-Ad for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:38:57 -0400 Original-Received: from wa-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.146.177]) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JdwFk-0000Bl-U6 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 19:38:57 -0400 Original-Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id k34so3899608wah.10 for ; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:38:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version:content-type; bh=XCH/wosnB9OV5zB8bijGy75/U9gC1mNCjxUrJnTfsE0=; b=pUGGFi1eu9jPfqlj6Tzys5d3v3Pqz7RDpJfIWeH1LJVEPP7cU7Gb3uvJGWd190XXQ287l4ZBH3b5oxQw20z9Dff5OOH85OCpJc/mTS0YeKOJ4bdXfhPt4vkk0ZQZlELoK3CGwkG+ziZEO7D9UVh2Tsu52JA56WcFc4oB5gjbtxw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:in-reply-to:references:x-mailer:mime-version:content-type; b=qwTwtP1kuxvecOdiAmQpY9N76TEiMuRN9n8ExA9q29Cuy2nZ+LvnuV4n+5YCS0+qNNJRR/O+tVNAn8iGeWjFpjN2d/LGIoKrpGuVChK89DL04bd8yJRWZO8MMB3zHdiMy1LjVZpcv47c0+EggilOxZQEjwWjW8ph8vHKAjtop5o= Original-Received: by 10.114.144.1 with SMTP id r1mr12965292wad.53.1206401935406; Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:38:55 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from reforged ( [71.217.206.83]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j6sm17147658wah.6.2008.03.24.16.38.54 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 24 Mar 2008 16:38:54 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.0.2 (GTK+ 2.12.8; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:93353 Archived-At: --Sig_/TUkkOJcZrHRLn+xaSRYEZUj Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 00:11:40 +0100 "paul r" wrote: > 2008/3/24, Sascha Wilde : >=20 > > To be honest: I don't care to much about that kind of people. > > There is a fair amount of software out there to suit there > > (limited?) needs -- please don't try to make Emacs just another one > > of these. > > > > I like Emacs for being driven by "doing the right thing" and by > > that aiming to become the perfect tool from hackers for hackers[0]. > > > > By all means: educate those who are willing to learn: don't make > > it unnecessarily hard for them and point them in the right > > direction, e.g. by pointing out that customization is crucial to > > make Emacs "yours". > > > > But _pretty please_ don't choose the defaults on what joe average > > programmers would expect. >=20 > My point of view is that newbies are precious resource in any project, > and neglecting them is dangerous. For many reasons, emacs would > benefit from having a greater number of beginners and casual users. > They are the connection between inside hackers and the outside world > [1]. A lot of things happen outside emacs world, RMS had an > interesting post about that recently. > Another point is that newbies tend to spend a lot of time expressing > what they like or not like on any project, and more generally > discussing about choices of software. That way, they maintain a > dynamic activity visible from people that do not know emacs yet. > Finally, their point of view might be biased by common software > practices, but at least it is not biased by many many years of > emacs-only usage :) >=20 > I do not see any serious threat to have emacs turned into a notepad, > an eclipse, a gedit or a kate, just because its default settings make > it more accessible to the mere mortal. 1. Emacs use does not confer immortality or superiority. 2. If I want to use eclipse, gedit, or kate, I can start them. I don't see how emulation makes Emacs better. In fact I use Eclispe in conjunction with Emacs already, solely for RAD tools and source analysis that Emacs lacks. Making Emacs highlight like eclipse doesn't mean a dingle, Making Emacs analyze C, C++, and Java, like other tools do, does. Those are the kind of features that compel adoption no matter what your opinion of their aesthetics. Solving hard problems is a sure way to a larger user base. 3. Newbies aren't a precious resource until donation is mandatory.=20 people who contribute patches are a precious resource. Your statement is sound though, IMHO, because contributors all started as newbies. > -- Paul >=20 > [1] btw, in this world, people start counting from 1, not from 0 ;) irrelevant. =20 >=20 --Sig_/TUkkOJcZrHRLn+xaSRYEZUj Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH6DqgdfRchrkBInkRAl9AAKC06kwg40yKvNyef++yKOANWxeDVACgs+Ut n/gt/CU/Ldknq0OPpWXoMNo= =XTEe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Sig_/TUkkOJcZrHRLn+xaSRYEZUj--