RE: bug#25: Acknowledgement (frame parameter menu-bar-lines changes height of frame)

RE: bug#25: Acknowledgement (frame parameter menu-bar-lines changes height of frame)

[Drew Adams]

Uh, why are we getting such emails?

And why does it say to submit further info about the bug to
"25@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, as before." As before?

We should be able to keep the same thread as the original bug-report mail,
and reply to that, _as before_. Same thread, subject line, reply-to, etc. We
should continue to be able to sort mails by thread, sender, etc. in our mail
clients, and not have a thread get split into different subjects, addresses,
etc.

Also, there is no inclusion of the original bug report, and no mention of
the date it was filed (10 months ago, in this case - so much for "Thank you
for filing a new bug report"). Instead, there is a URL to a Web site - not
equivalent.

This is not an improvement for users, IMO. Please keep email about a bug
within a single thread. If you want to also mirror part of that thread
invisibly to some bug-report backend, then do so, but please don't confuse
users this way.

Thx.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Emacs bug Tracking System [mailto:don@donarmstrong.com] 
> Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 1:15 AM
> To: Drew Adams
> Subject: bug#25: Acknowledgement (frame parameter 
> menu-bar-lines changes height of frame)
> 
> 
> Thank you for filing a new bug report with Emacs.
> 
> This is an automatically generated reply to let you know your message
> has been received.
> 
> Your message is being forwarded to the package maintainers and other
> interested parties for their attention; they will reply in due course.
> 
> Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
>  Emacs Bugs <emacsbugs@lists.donarmstrong.com>
> 
> If you wish to submit further information on this problem, please
> send it to 25@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, as before.
> 
> Please do not send mail to don@donarmstrong.com unless you wish
> to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.
> 
> 
> -- 
> 25: http://emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=25
> Emacs Bug Tracking System
> Contact don@donarmstrong.com with problems
> 

Re: bug#25: Acknowledgement (frame parameter menu-bar-lines changes height of frame)

[Jason Rumney]

Drew Adams wrote:
> Uh, why are we getting such emails?
>   

You are getting this because I picked one of your outstanding reports to 
test the bug submission process. I didn't realise that it would result 
in an auto-reply to you, next time I will forward an email from my own 
address rather than resending an existing report with original headers 
intact.

> And why does it say to submit further info about the bug to
> "25@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, as before." As before?
>   

Obviously there are problems to be ironed out.

>  We should continue to be able to sort mails by thread, sender, etc. in our mail
> clients, and not have a thread get split into different subjects, addresses,
> etc.
>   

I think we're going to have to put up with some breakage of this ideal 
while we make the transition to the new bug reporting system. Once the 
new system is up and running, the prefixes on the subject line should be 
consistent once the bug has hit the system. If we impose requirements 
like "no changing the subject line" on bug reporting tools, we are going 
to end up with a bug tracker that is basically an unsorted mailing list 
archive that someone needs to go in and fix up by hand.

RE: bug#25: Acknowledgement (frame parameter menu-bar-lines changes height of frame)

[Drew Adams]

> > Uh, why are we getting such emails?
> 
> You are getting this because I picked one of your outstanding 
> reports to test the bug submission process. I didn't realise
> that it would result in an auto-reply to you, next time I
> will forward an email from my own address rather than
> resending an existing report with original headers intact.

OK. No problem. Thanks for the prompt explanation.

> > And why does it say to submit further info about the bug to
> > "25@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, as before." As before?
> 
> Obviously there are problems to be ironed out.

HTH.

> >  We should continue to be able to sort mails by thread, 
> > sender, etc. in our mail clients, and not have a thread
> > get split into different subjects, addresses, etc.
> 
> I think we're going to have to put up with some breakage of 
> this ideal while we make the transition to the new bug
> reporting system.

OK (for the transition).

> Once the new system is up and running, the prefixes on the
> subject line should be consistent once the bug has hit the
> system.

Consistent is good. Even better is to treat it as a normal mail thread, so
the original message is also in the same stream. IOW, bug sending should
also have the same prefix, whatever it is.

> If we impose requirements like "no changing the subject line"
> on bug reporting tools, we are going to end up with a bug
> tracker that is basically an unsorted mailing list 
> archive that someone needs to go in and fix up by hand.

I don't see why. Why would an automatic system not be able to keep the
subject intact (using whatever prefixing convention it wants, consistently).

I use bug trackers everyday, as I'm sure others do also. I have no problem
with a Web-based system, with or without initial reporting by email. But
there should be one-stop shopping for the complete bug-report history:
everything should be in one thread - either email or on a Web page, and that
one place should also be where you post updates. It should be easy to sort
and search bug reports in different ways. This is nothing new, in general.

Re: bug#25: Acknowledgement (frame parameter menu-bar-lines changes height of frame)

[Don Armstrong]

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Drew Adams wrote:
> We should be able to keep the same thread as the original bug-report
> mail, and reply to that, _as before_. Same thread, subject line,
> reply-to, etc. We should continue to be able to sort mails by
> thread, sender, etc. in our mail clients, and not have a thread get
> split into different subjects, addresses, etc.

Assuming the emacs developers decide to use debbugs, each bug has it's
own list, and you'll send more information to
bugnum@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com[1] so thread sorting etc. will all
happen as you're expecting it to, assuming References: and
In-Reply-To: are kept intact by correspondents.

> Also, there is no inclusion of the original bug report, and no
> mention of the date it was filed (10 months ago, in this case - so
> much for "Thank you for filing a new bug report"). Instead, there is
> a URL to a Web site - not equivalent.

When everything is working normally, you will get such an ack within
minutes of filing a new report (so sending you back the original bug
report wouldn't really be useful.)


Don Armstrong

1: Well, obviously not to my machine, but some equivalent address.
-- 
A Democracy lead by politicians and political parties, fails.

http://www.donarmstrong.com              http://rzlab.ucr.edu

Re: bug#25: Acknowledgement (frame parameter menu-bar-lines changes height of frame)

[Don Armstrong]

On Fri, 29 Feb 2008, Drew Adams wrote:
> Consistent is good. Even better is to treat it as a normal mail
> thread, so the original message is also in the same stream. IOW, bug
> sending should also have the same prefix, whatever it is.

It is a normal mail thread, actually. You received the
acknowledgement, which is outside the thread. Maintainers and everyone
else following the thread just receive a normal method with bug#
prepended to the subject.
 
> I don't see why. Why would an automatic system not be able to keep
> the subject intact (using whatever prefixing convention it wants,
> consistently).

It does do this, actually.

> But there should be one-stop shopping for the complete bug-report
> history: everything should be in one thread - either email or on a
> Web page, and that one place should also be where you post updates.

And this is the case as well. bugnum@btssystem is the place where you
mail followups, and anyone who has elected to receive followups gets
them as well. What you got (and anyone else who sends mail to the
system without headers to say that you don't want them gets) is an
acknowledgement that your followup was received. [If you don't want
them, add an X-Debbugs-No-Ack: header or psuedoheader.]


Don Armstrong

-- 
It was said that life was cheap in Ankh-Morpork. This was, of course,
completely wrong. Life was often very expensive; you could get death
for free.
 -- Terry Pratchet _Pyramids_ p25

http://www.donarmstrong.com              http://rzlab.ucr.edu

Re: bug#25: Acknowledgement (frame parameter menu-bar-lines changes height of frame)

[Stefan Monnier]

> Uh, why are we getting such emails?
> And why does it say to submit further info about the bug to
> "25@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, as before."

This email address is how the bug-tracking system keep track of threads
(instead of using "References:" and "In-Reply-To:").

> We should be able to keep the same thread as the original bug-report mail,
> and reply to that, _as before_.

In what way can't you?  You mean because you now have the bug-gnu-emacs
tread and the 25@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com thread?  If so, it's
a temporary problem which will be sorted out soon by removing the
bug-gnu-emacs (and ultimately sending the new thread to the
bug-gnu-emacs recipients).


        Stefan

Re: bug#25: Acknowledgement (frame parameter menu-bar-lines changes height of frame)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2008 00:29:39 -0500
> Cc: 25@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> > Uh, why are we getting such emails?
> > And why does it say to submit further info about the bug to
> > "25@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, as before."
> 
> This email address is how the bug-tracking system keep track of threads
> (instead of using "References:" and "In-Reply-To:").
> 
> > We should be able to keep the same thread as the original bug-report mail,
> > and reply to that, _as before_.
> 
> In what way can't you?  You mean because you now have the bug-gnu-emacs
> tread and the 25@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com thread?  If so, it's
> a temporary problem which will be sorted out soon by removing the
> bug-gnu-emacs (and ultimately sending the new thread to the
> bug-gnu-emacs recipients).

I'm confused: in another message you said to subscribe to
emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, but now you seem to be saying that the bug
reports will be sent to recipients of bug-gnu-emacs?  If the latter is
correct, why should we subscribe to emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com?

Re: bug#25: Acknowledgement (frame parameter menu-bar-lines changes height of frame)

[Don Armstrong]

On Sun, 02 Mar 2008, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> I'm confused: in another message you said to subscribe to
> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, but now you seem to be saying that the
> bug reports will be sent to recipients of bug-gnu-emacs? If the
> latter is correct, why should we subscribe to
> emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com?

emacsbugs@lists.donarmstrong.com is what the maintainer of the emacs
package is configured as, and the mailing list that receives all of
the mails that a maintainer would see. You should subscribe to it, if,
during this teseting period you want to see exactly the types of
messages that the maintainers would see.

When we actually deploy, my suggestion is that bug-gnu-emacs be
configured to send messages to submit@emacsbugs.gnu.org (or wherever
the debbugs install ends up) and current subscribers of the
bug-gnu-emacs list get stuck on a new mailing list where all bug
related e-mails are copied. [The equivalent for Debian is
debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org[1]] (An alternative equivalent would
be to keep the bug-gnu-emacs list, but have incomming mail not sent
from the debbugs install redirected to submit@emacsbugs.gnu.org.[2])

Each of the configured packages will presumably also have their own
mailing list which people can subscribe to if they aren't interested
in all emacs related bugs. [We also have hooks for EoC to allow for
subscription to single bugs if that's desired.]


Don Armstrong

1: This mailing list averages a few thousand messages a day.
2: I'm too used to smartlist which makes this sort of thing trivial;
no clue how to do it in mailman.
-- 
A citizen of America will cross the ocean to fight for democracy, but
won't cross the street to vote in a national election.
 -- Bill Vaughan

http://www.donarmstrong.com              http://rzlab.ucr.edu