From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Alan Mackenzie Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Tentative diagnosis of TMM's problem. [Re: Enabling Transient Mark Mode by default] Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:01:42 +0000 Message-ID: <20080220200142.GA1979@muc.de> References: <200802151711.m1FHB3Y3008798@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <200802171658.m1HGwQ4h011067@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <20080219085231.GA1032@muc.de> <200802190938.m1J9ccVg016565@sallyv1.ics.uci.edu> <20080219190127.GA1106@muc.de> <877ih0o9dx.fsf@catnip.gol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1203536982 3459 80.91.229.12 (20 Feb 2008 19:49:42 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2008 19:49:42 +0000 (UTC) Cc: rms@gnu.org, Sascha Wilde , lennart.borgman@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, juri@jurta.org, dann@ics.uci.edu, storm@cua.dk, Miles Bader To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 20 20:50:05 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1JRuwz-0002jO-9q for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:49:53 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JRuwU-0000a6-DO for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:49:22 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JRuwQ-0000Zq-CC for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:49:18 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1JRuwO-0000Zb-Q5 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:49:17 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1JRuwO-0000ZY-Jw for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:49:16 -0500 Original-Received: from colin.muc.de ([193.149.48.1] helo=mail.muc.de) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1JRuwN-0004q1-Vg for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 14:49:16 -0500 Original-Received: (qmail 81000 invoked by uid 3782); 20 Feb 2008 19:49:08 -0000 Original-Received: from acm.muc.de (p57AF6D5E.dip.t-dialin.net [87.175.109.94]) by colin2.muc.de (tmda-ofmipd) with ESMTP; Wed, 20 Feb 2008 20:49:05 +0100 Original-Received: (qmail 2601 invoked by uid 1000); 20 Feb 2008 20:01:42 -0000 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i X-Delivery-Agent: TMDA/1.1.5 (Fettercairn) X-Primary-Address: acm@muc.de X-detected-kernel: by monty-python.gnu.org: FreeBSD 4.6-4.9 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:89730 Archived-At: Hi, Stefan, On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 11:52:32AM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote: > Whenever I use "emacs -Q" or some similar "vanilla Emacs", the first > thing that I'm urged to do is M-x transient-mark-mode (and it was > already N°1 back when fotn-lock-mode wasn't the default). > Of course, I'm sure I'd be able to learn to live without it. It seems > like an option affect people *very* strongly, so those who want it > *really* want it, and those who don't *really* don't. Strongly agreed! It should be obvious, really - using Emacs with TMM is so radically different from using it without, that it's difficult to imagine anybody not being unhappy with (at least) one of these options. Anyhow, thanks for actually giving positive reasons for favouring TMM. They've been pretty much missing, so far in the thread. After thinking your next paragraphs over, I think I can see the big problem with TMM: > So, that's for my personal preference. As to why turn it on *by > default*, here are some reasons why I think it should be ON by default: > - Visual feedback about the mark's position and active status. > I and all (X)Emacs users I know personally (i.e. off-this-list) and > with whom I've talked about transient-mark-mode use > transient-mark-mode (or its XEmacs equivalent) and find it difficult > to use Emacs without it because of the lack of visual feedback about > where the mark really is. I do not claim that this small group of > people is representative, but it does seem relevant. > - Extended semantics for various commands. > Many commands now offer to operate on the region if the region is > active but only when transient-mark-mode is ON. > This functionality is now also available to non-tmm-users via the > temporary-transient-mark-mode (C-SPC C-SPC), admittedly, but while > C-SPC C-SPC is easy enough to use, I always find myself selecting the > region *before* knowing that I want to use such a command (or > selecting the region with something else than C-SPC, typically > C-M-SPC), so I end up having to use C-u C-x C-x which I find a lot > more inconvenient. And that problem is, what on earth do these two facets of TMM have to do with eachother? Why should you have to "suffer" the visual effects of TMM, if you just want to use the "extended semantics", and why can you only highlight the region as a side effect of doing something else? I think that if we partitioned TMM into the command `highlight-region', and the other stuff, most of the acrimony on this thread would abate. highlight-region probably deserves its own key binding. > -- Stefan -- Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).