From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Luc Teirlinck Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Starnge comment in Custom Theme code. Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 14:58:36 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <200512242058.jBOKwaC12601@raven.dms.auburn.edu> References: <200512241630.jBOGU6H09878@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <87bqz6h0lw.fsf@stupidchicken.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1135464612 416 80.91.229.2 (24 Dec 2005 22:50:12 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 22:50:12 +0000 (UTC) Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Dec 24 23:50:08 2005 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EqIDC-00035F-Em for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 24 Dec 2005 23:50:02 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EqIEJ-0003CZ-RJ for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 24 Dec 2005 17:51:11 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EqGWT-0006nN-Dc for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:01:49 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EqGWR-0006nB-VE for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:01:49 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EqGWR-0006n8-S1 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:01:47 -0500 Original-Received: from [131.204.53.104] (helo=manatee.dms.auburn.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1EqGVy-0004wk-Ko for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 24 Dec 2005 16:01:18 -0500 Original-Received: from raven.dms.auburn.edu (raven.dms.auburn.edu [131.204.53.29]) by manatee.dms.auburn.edu (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP id jBOL0bC2014431 for ; Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:00:37 -0600 (CST) Original-Received: (from teirllm@localhost) by raven.dms.auburn.edu (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id jBOKwaC12601; Sat, 24 Dec 2005 14:58:36 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.dms.auburn.edu: teirllm set sender to teirllm@dms.auburn.edu using -f Original-To: emacs-devel@gnu.org In-reply-to: <87bqz6h0lw.fsf@stupidchicken.com> (message from Chong Yidong on Sat, 24 Dec 2005 12:21:47 -0500) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.1 (manatee.dms.auburn.edu [131.204.53.104]); Sat, 24 Dec 2005 15:00:37 -0600 (CST) X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 24 Dec 2005 17:50:56 -0500 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:48335 Archived-At: Chong Yidong wrote: I don't know what your belly-aching is supposed to accomplish; Mainly to try to prevent the Custom Theme code from negatively affecting the general functioning of the non-theme Custom. Unless certain issues are satisfactorily resolved, it will. If these issues can not be resolved before the release, Custom Themes should quite simply not be part of the release. Trying to fix bugs in Custom Themes can easily produce bugs in the non-theme Custom. In addition a major problem with Custom Themes (apart from its bugs) is that to safely make some changes, enhancements or even bug fixes to Custom, you sometimes have to know every detail about Custom themes. These details are vague and ill-defined, which is a problem in itself, but made worse by the previous fact. I believed that we made substantial progress on the issue of clearly and _simply_ defining what Custom themes are a few days ago. (Unfortunately, some things you said today put this in doubt again.) I believe that we decided that a Custom theme was an alternative standard value, that is, setting a value through a Theme is completely equivalent with specifying an alternative expression in the defcustom. If we would _consistently_ stick with that (which implies that Custom Themes do not override setq) and also consistently stick with the fact that Themes are stored in separate files loaded in .emacs and that Custom has nothing to do with it, then Custom Themes would no longer be the big obstacle to safely making changes in Custom that they are now. People would know what Custom Themes are supposed to do without understanding their code in full detail. We should remove all Custom Theme code that conflicts with the above straightforward definition of a Custom Theme and all code that tries to write into .emacs on behalf of Custom themes. That would be a big improvement. (What about these four lines in `custom-save-variables' I asked you to explain?) In addition, things would be a _lot_ cleaner if the theme value got stored in the standard-value property, to be consistent the above definition. Then it would be once again completely safe to make changes in Custom without worrying about Custom Themes. But that does probably imply some more extensive rewriting. Sincerely, Luc.