From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Luc Teirlinck Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Document option tool-bar-mode Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2005 23:24:21 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <200512190524.jBJ5OLu08437@raven.dms.auburn.edu> References: <22534.1134868813@olgas.newt.com> <200512180258.jBI2wrO21007@raven.dms.auburn.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: main.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1134970008 4306 80.91.229.2 (19 Dec 2005 05:26:48 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2005 05:26:48 +0000 (UTC) Cc: wohler@newt.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Dec 19 06:26:43 2005 Return-path: Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by ciao.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EoDXZ-0006EB-72 for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 19 Dec 2005 06:26:29 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EoDYO-0006KF-NK for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:27:20 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EoDY9-0006K4-JJ for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:27:05 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1EoDY8-0006IM-4I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:27:05 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1EoDY8-0006IH-2A for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:27:04 -0500 Original-Received: from [131.204.53.104] (helo=manatee.dms.auburn.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1EoDb0-0002Fa-Ov; Mon, 19 Dec 2005 00:30:02 -0500 Original-Received: from raven.dms.auburn.edu (raven.dms.auburn.edu [131.204.53.29]) by manatee.dms.auburn.edu (8.13.3+Sun/8.13.3) with ESMTP id jBJ5QAx7027288; Sun, 18 Dec 2005 23:26:10 -0600 (CST) Original-Received: (from teirllm@localhost) by raven.dms.auburn.edu (8.11.7p1+Sun/8.11.7) id jBJ5OLu08437; Sun, 18 Dec 2005 23:24:21 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.dms.auburn.edu: teirllm set sender to teirllm@dms.auburn.edu using -f Original-To: rms@gnu.org In-reply-to: (rms@gnu.org) X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.1 (manatee.dms.auburn.edu [131.204.53.104]); Sun, 18 Dec 2005 23:26:10 -0600 (CST) X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:48039 Archived-At: Richard Stallman wrote: Not necessaily. You can set variables either temporarily or permanently with Custom. So I think Bill's text is not wrong (aside from @samp). We're talking to people here, not to machines. If people won't get the wrong idea, it isn't a problem. Meanwhile, making the text longer and more cumberson would impede clarity. Let's use Bill's shorter text. If you do `C-h i g (emacs)Intro' and then do `s customize RET s RET s RET...', you will see that "customize" is used in the general English sense of the word and even _explicitly_ in the sense of setting variables in the non Custom way when we suddenly see: To enable this mode, use the command `M-x partial-completion-mode', or customize the variable `partial-completion-mode'. But at this stage the Customize interface has not even been mentioned. How could a user new to Emacs, who reads the manual back to front, understand this any other way than to set the variable without using Custom? He does not even know about Custom's existence yet. I believe that there is not only a problem with Bill's text, there is also a problem with the above quote, as well as with similar usage elsewhere in the Emacs manual. How can a beginning user guess that "customize" means customize through some specific interface, when he is not even aware of the existence of that interface yet? I believe that the Emacs manual is not meant exclusively as an online reference for experienced users and we should not treat it as such. (Unfortunately, many people on this list seem to view it exclusively as an online reference, because that is how they themselves use it.) Sincerely, Luc.