From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Miles Bader Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Default Emacs keybindings Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 05:55:25 -0400 Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <20040503095525.GA22387@fencepost> References: <20040502211541.GA26227@fencepost> <85y8oa6nwi.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <20040503083427.GA6360@fencepost> NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1083578242 14443 80.91.224.253 (3 May 2004 09:57:22 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 3 May 2004 09:57:22 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Lars Brinkhoff , emacs-devel@gnu.org, "Kim F. Storm" , Miles Bader Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Mon May 03 11:57:11 2004 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BKaCF-00075b-00 for ; Mon, 03 May 2004 11:57:11 +0200 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1BKaCE-0004jZ-00 for ; Mon, 03 May 2004 11:57:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BKaBj-0003dm-KC for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Mon, 03 May 2004 05:56:39 -0400 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BKaB6-0003ZL-5j for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 03 May 2004 05:56:00 -0400 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.30) id 1BKaAY-0003MT-19 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 03 May 2004 05:55:57 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.164] (helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1BKaAX-0003MO-Q9 for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Mon, 03 May 2004 05:55:25 -0400 Original-Received: from miles by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.24) id 1BKaAX-0006gF-GN; Mon, 03 May 2004 05:55:25 -0400 Original-To: "Kim F. Storm" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.28i Blat: Foop X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.4 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:22599 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:22599 On Mon, May 03, 2004 at 09:32:47AM +0200, Kim F. Storm wrote: > Why insist on teaching (in the tutorial) new emacs users (which I bet > don't have a HH keyboard) to use bindings which you just admitted are > NOT convenient to use with today's standard keyboard layout. It's not a boolean. emacs-bindings + proper-keyboard > emacs-bindings > standard-bindings > If those bindings are only superior in a special setup, why waste time > teaching/learning them? That time would be better spent on teaching some > of the _useful_ features of emacs. In the case of the particular bindings under discussion -- arrow keys vs. C-f &c., the emacs keys are better bindings even with a suboptimal control-key placement, because the arrow keys are enormous lose efficiency-wise. Whether they are sufficiently important to discuss first in the tutorial [*], I have no idea, but those bindings are useful, and I think a good thing to teach. [*] Historically they were, because often users didn't have any arrow keys! Obviously this is not true anymore. -Miles -- A zen-buddhist walked into a pizza shop and said, "Make me one with everything."