From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: main.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Luc Teirlinck Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: Changes to Texinfo DTD Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 20:53:15 -0600 (CST) Sender: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Message-ID: <200312040253.hB42rFS25853@raven.dms.auburn.edu> References: <8765heixvu.fsf@kanga.tapsellferrier.co.uk> <87ptfkdqss.fsf@kanga.tapsellferrier.co.uk> <20031122214251.GA14680@fencepost> <874qwuqjzw.fsf@mail.jurta.org> <200311241619.hAOGJ6W27027@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <200312030147.hB31lUh20316@raven.dms.auburn.edu> <2914-Wed03Dec2003181809+0200-eliz@elta.co.il> NNTP-Posting-Host: deer.gmane.org X-Trace: sea.gmane.org 1070506916 17170 80.91.224.253 (4 Dec 2003 03:01:56 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@sea.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 03:01:56 +0000 (UTC) Cc: juri@jurta.org, epameinondas@gmx.de, nferrier@tapsellferrier.co.uk, bob@rattlesnake.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org, karl@freefriends.org Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 04 04:01:51 2003 Return-path: Original-Received: from quimby.gnus.org ([80.91.224.244]) by deer.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARjkV-0004qP-00 for ; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 04:01:51 +0100 Original-Received: from monty-python.gnu.org ([199.232.76.173]) by quimby.gnus.org with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 1ARjkV-0000gk-00 for ; Thu, 04 Dec 2003 04:01:51 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1ARkgl-00087L-V0 for emacs-devel@quimby.gnus.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 23:02:03 -0500 Original-Received: from list by monty-python.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.24) id 1ARkgg-00086s-Jk for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 23:01:58 -0500 Original-Received: from mail by monty-python.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.24) id 1ARkgA-0007wl-HU for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 23:01:57 -0500 Original-Received: from [131.204.53.104] (helo=manatee.dms.auburn.edu) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1ARkgA-0007u7-5v for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Wed, 03 Dec 2003 23:01:26 -0500 Original-Received: from raven.dms.auburn.edu (raven.dms.auburn.edu [131.204.53.29]) by manatee.dms.auburn.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id hB42xkKk017015; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 20:59:46 -0600 (CST) Original-Received: (from teirllm@localhost) by raven.dms.auburn.edu (8.11.6+Sun/8.11.6) id hB42rFS25853; Wed, 3 Dec 2003 20:53:15 -0600 (CST) X-Authentication-Warning: raven.dms.auburn.edu: teirllm set sender to teirllm@dms.auburn.edu using -f Original-To: eliz@elta.co.il In-reply-to: <2914-Wed03Dec2003181809+0200-eliz@elta.co.il> X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.2 Precedence: list List-Id: Emacs development discussions. List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+emacs-devel=quimby.gnus.org@gnu.org Xref: main.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:18348 X-Report-Spam: http://spam.gmane.org/gmane.emacs.devel:18348 That just means my wording should perhaps be improved further, or maybe we should use @ifinfo and @ifnotinfo to make the text loog good in both online and hard-copy version. It would be silly (and impossible) to try to manually rewrite all references to other manuals in all currently existing .texi files this way, when the xrefs contain enough information for an Info reader (actually "makeinfo --xml" reader) to rewrite these sentences _automatically_ the way you want them rewritten, without requiring any changes in .texi files and, hence, without any danger of messing up any other formats. That was exactly what I proposed in the message you reacted too. If you want to do that though, you can not use the Info format. In fact, you can not use the Info format to correctly implement a value of t for Info-hide-note-references. I do not believe that the main intent of the Info format ever was to "look cool". If I understand correctly, the main intent was that even Info readers with minimal capabilities should be able to handle it. That is not very compatible with making things look "cool", "modern", "beautiful" or whatever you want to call it. For me Emacs info does not need to look "cool", it needs to be easy and efficient to use, but for other people it is extremely important that it looks as "cool" as possible. OK with me, but then it needs to use another format. If we use XML, we can not only make these and other xrefs come out the way you want them too, we can do so while filling correctly, respecting all @*, @w, @verb and the like. In addition to everything else people wanted to use XML for in this thread. Sincerely, Luc.